Frankenstein & his monster in IIF:GMOD

[Col_Fury]

In IIF:GMOD /3, Orson Randall (re-)meets the Frankenstein monster. For Orson, this needs to be shortly before 1933, if not in 1933. Where does it go for the monster?

Victor Frankenstein appears here, explicitly after his death; he’s transferred his mind into the body of his “worthless son.” Orson notes that he’s previously met the monster (who recognizes Orson) “15 years ago.” Victor dies (again). The doctor and his monster are living in a castle in Germany, which Orson recognizes from the last time he was there. Orson recognizes the son, but doesn’t learn he’s Victor until this story.

Here’s what we currently have:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER
……
MONF 4 (1898, Victor dead)
MONF 5 (monster encounters a werewolf woman)
LOM:WBN /2 (monster living w/a priest; doesn’t end well)
FMON 6 (monster in search of “last” Frankenstein)
FMON 7 (starts a story finding “last” Frankenstein, frozen & awakening in present day)
……

I’m going to say:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER
……
MONF 4
MONF 5
LOM:WBN /2
*IIF:GMOD /3
FMON 6
FMON 7
……

FRANKENSTEIN, VICTOR
……
MONF 3-FB
*IIF:GMOD /3

Thoughts?

[loki]

In IIF:GMOD /3, Orson Randall (re-)meets the Frankenstein monster. For Orson, this needs to be shortly before 1933, if not in 1933. Where does it go for the monster?

Victor Frankenstein appears here, explicitly after his death; he’s transferred his mind into the body of his “worthless son.” Orson notes that he’s previously met the monster (who recognizes Orson) “15 years ago.” Victor dies (again). The doctor and his monster are living in a castle in Germany, which Orson recognizes from the last time he was there. Orson recognizes the son, but doesn’t learn he’s Victor until this story.

Here’s what we currently have:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER
……
MONF 4 (1898, Victor dead)
MONF 5 (monster encounters a werewolf woman)
LOM:WBN /2 (monster living w/a priest; doesn’t end well)
FMON 6 (monster in search of “last” Frankenstein)
FMON 7 (starts a story finding “last” Frankenstein, frozen & awakening in present day)
……

I’m going to say:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER
……
MONF 4
MONF 5
LOM:WBN /2
*IIF:GMOD /3
FMON 6
FMON 7
……

FRANKENSTEIN, VICTOR
……
MONF 3-FB
*IIF:GMOD /3

Thoughts?

I'd have to re-read the story, but I don't think this was the Frankenstein's Monster, but a Frankenstein's Monster. Remember that the whole Frankenstein family seems to have a history of producing monsters based on the original design. Similarly I'd want to double check the Frankenstein family tree before confirming which member of the clan is in this story.

[Col_Fury]

Man, the monster gets frozen a lot.

In IIF:GMOD /3, “doc” Frankenstein is in the German castle and has been for at least 15 years. We’re in 1932 or 1933, so since at least 1917 or 1918. This Frankenstein is super into transferring brains between bodies. Also, he’s transferred his mind into the body of his “worthless son.” The body looks to be an early teen. Orson thinks it’s the son and learns he’s the “doc” transferred. The monster recognizes Orson, they met in Germany, possibly during WWI. Also, the doc calls this monster “Frank.” Also, “doc” and Orson’s father were roommates at university.

Phineas Randall (Orosn’s dad) arrives in K’un-Lun with his preganant wife, who give birth less than a month later. Orson becomes Iron Fist at 17 yrs old and seemingly shortly after fights in WWI in 1916. So… Orson was likely born in 1898 or 1899. Phineas would have been in college some years before that, maybe 1888? Born in 1870? This doc would be the same age, so roughly 60 in 1933. He could conceivably have a teenage son by 1933.

OK, Victor died in the late 1790s. The von Frankenstein that appears in IIF:GMOD /3 (in the 1930s) shouldn’t be him. The monster is frozen and wakes up in 1898.

In FMON 6 the monster returns to the Frankenstein castle in Germany. The monster learns that Jason von Frankenstein used to live there but left over 20 years ago. Jason, as far as I can tell, is only mentioned in dialogue in this issue and doesn’t actually appear anywhere. We’re either still in 1898 here, and Jason would have left the castle in the 1870s. Probably not him.

Vincent von Frankenstein shows up in FMON 9, we’re still in 1898, and he looks to be roughly the same age as Phineas Randall. He’s in a different Frankenstein castle here (in Geneva). In FMON 9-11 Vincent is totally into switching brains between bodies, and his son Basil is born. Basil is taken away by the maid Betty. Vincent is shot and seemingly dies.

Basil appears again in INV 31, also making monsters.

I’m really thinking that the “doc” Frankenstein in IIF:GMOD /3 is Vincent. He’s the right age, and he’s super into switching brains around. We only see him get shot and pass out in FMON 11, and sure, the monster thinks he’s dead, but do we know for sure?

Let’s say Vincent survived. He goes to the now empty German castle and sets up shop, has another kid (the unnamed “worthless son”) somewhere around 1915. He meets Orson around 1918. At some point transfers his own mind into his son’s body and meets Orson again in 1932/1933. That would also mean the monster seen in IIF:GMOD is a different monster, who Vincent calls “Frank.”

Remember the Frankenstein monster in Marvel: the Lost Generation #5? He was also just called “Frank.” I wonder…

Anyway, this is what I’m thinking now:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER II/”FRANK”
IIF:GMOD /3
???{M/:LG 5}???

(VON) FRANKENSTEIN, BASIL
*FMON 11
INV 31-FB

VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. VINCENT
FMON 9
FMON 10
FMON 11
IIF:GMOD /3

Shouldn’t all the Frankenstein family members be on the V page for von Frankenstein, instead of the F page for Frankenstein?

Also, it looks like I’ll be looking around for missing Frankensteins at some point; at a glance we seem to be missing a few.

Thoughts?

[loki]

Man, the monster gets frozen a lot.

Per the U.S. Department of Agriculture, it is safe to thaw and then refreeze meat.

In IIF:GMOD /3, “doc” Frankenstein is in the German castle and has been for at least 15 years. We’re in 1932 or 1933, so since at least 1917 or 1918. This Frankenstein is super into transferring brains between bodies. Also, he’s transferred his mind into the body of his “worthless son.” The body looks to be an early teen. Orson thinks it’s the son and learns he’s the “doc” transferred. The monster recognizes Orson, they met in Germany, possibly during WWI. Also, the doc calls this monster “Frank.” Also, “doc” and Orson’s father were roommates at university.

In All New Invaders#12, the October 1917 flashback reveals that Freedom's Five, including temporary new member Orson Randall, are planning a mission into German territory to take down Germany's mad scientist Ursula Frankenstein before she can create an army of corpse soldiers. So while Orson could conceivably have met "Doc Frankenstein" prior to this (perhaps this is how FF learned of Ursula's activities, from her disgruntled relative), it's also possible that he met Doc and this version of the Monster when FF went on that mission. At least unless and until additional evidence becomes available, I'd lean towards it being the latter option, as the timing works out so well.

OK, Victor died in the late 1790s. The von Frankenstein that appears in IIF:GMOD /3 (in the 1930s) shouldn’t be him.

Agreed. Not impossible, given the mad science aspect of things, but not probable.

In FMON 6 the monster returns to the Frankenstein castle in Germany. The monster learns that Jason von Frankenstein used to live there but left over 20 years ago. Jason, as far as I can tell, is only mentioned in dialogue in this issue and doesn’t actually appear anywhere. We’re either still in 1898 here, and Jason would have left the castle in the 1870s. Probably not him.

Agreed.

Basil appears again in INV 31, also making monsters.

It's the family's schtick.

I’m really thinking that the “doc” Frankenstein in IIF:GMOD /3 is Vincent. He’s the right age, and he’s super into switching brains around. We only see him get shot and pass out in FMON 11, and sure, the monster thinks he’s dead, but do we know for sure?

Certainly, of the known Frankensteins, he's the one who fits the bill best. Of course, this could be a brand new member of the family, previously unseen.

Let’s say Vincent survived. He goes to the now empty German castle and sets up shop, has another kid (the unnamed “worthless son”) somewhere around 1915. He meets Orson around 1918. At some point transfers his own mind into his son’s body and meets Orson again in 1932/1933. That would also mean the monster seen in IIF:GMOD is a different monster, who Vincent calls “Frank.”

Remember the Frankenstein monster in Marvel: the Lost Generation #5? He was also just called “Frank.” I wonder…

Anyway, this is what I’m thinking now:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER II/”FRANK”
IIF:GMOD /3
???{M/:LG 5}???

(VON) FRANKENSTEIN, BASIL
*FMON 11
INV 31-FB

VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. VINCENT
FMON 9
FMON 10
FMON 11
IIF:GMOD /3

Shouldn’t all the Frankenstein family members be on the V page for von Frankenstein, instead of the F page for Frankenstein?

Also, it looks like I’ll be looking around for missing Frankensteins at some point; at a glance we seem to be missing a few.

Thoughts?

It could be a new Frankenstein, rather than Victor, and it could be that this is an entirely different monster from the First Line's Frank. But I think it's definitely a viable theory for it to be those two, unless and until further info becomes available to confirm or contradict it. I'd suggest that the following amendments though:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER II/”FRANK”
???IIF:GMOD /3???
{M/:LG 5}

since we know that Frankenstein's Monster II (as you guys identify him) is the one in LG, while we don't know that Frank in GMOD is the same guy. And btw, shouldn't that Frank be Frankenstein's Monster III anyway, since there was the Frankenstein Monster in Invader who would have been II?

And similarly
VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. VINCENT
FMON 9
FMON 10
FMON 11
???IIF:GMOD /3???

since we don't know for sure if the guy in GMOD is Vincent.

[Col_Fury]

In All New Invaders#12, the October 1917 flashback reveals that Freedom's Five, including temporary new member Orson Randall, are planning a mission into German territory to take down Germany's mad scientist Ursula Frankenstein before she can create an army of corpse soldiers. So while Orson could conceivably have met "Doc Frankenstein" prior to this (perhaps this is how FF learned of Ursula's activities, from her disgruntled relative), it's also possible that he met Doc and this version of the Monster when FF went on that mission. At least unless and until additional evidence becomes available, I'd lean towards it being the latter option, as the timing works out so well.

I agree the timing would be pretty good for Ursula, but the doc in IIF:GMOD /3 and Orson's dad were roommates at university. Would a man (Phineas) and a woman (Ursula) be roommates at university in the late 1800s?

And btw, shouldn't that Frank be Frankenstein's Monster III anyway, since there was the Frankenstein Monster in Invaders who would have been II?

That monster is currently called "Frankenstein Monster prototype," I think because he was a prototype for an army of monsters, but I'm finding that misleading / confusing. A prototype should precede the first "real" version, and the first real version predates this "prototype" by over a hundred years. Yuck.

Also, yeah, there's very little evidence beyond both having a nickname "Frank" to tie this WWI monster to the the First Line monster. We should probably list them as different characters until we get something a little stronger than having the same nickname. Oh well.

In theory:

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER (original)
MONF 1 (6:4 - 8:3)-FB
……

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER II/"FRANK" (WWI)
IIF:GMOD /3

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER III (WWII)
INV 31-FB-FB
INV 31-FB

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER IV/"FRANK" (1960s)
M/:LG 5

[loki]

In All New Invaders#12, the October 1917 flashback reveals that Freedom's Five, including temporary new member Orson Randall, are planning a mission into German territory to take down Germany's mad scientist Ursula Frankenstein before she can create an army of corpse soldiers. So while Orson could conceivably have met "Doc Frankenstein" prior to this (perhaps this is how FF learned of Ursula's activities, from her disgruntled relative), it's also possible that he met Doc and this version of the Monster when FF went on that mission. At least unless and until additional evidence becomes available, I'd lean towards it being the latter option, as the timing works out so well.

I agree the timing would be pretty good for Ursula, but the doc in IIF:GMOD /3 and Orson's dad were roommates at university. Would a man (Phineas) and a woman (Ursula) be roommates at university in the late 1800s?

I'm not suggesting that Ursula was the roommate/body thief - that's ruled out by the fact that Orson considered "Doc Frankenstein" a former ally, whereas Ursula was identified as an enemy (plus the whole 1800s co-ed roommate problem). I'm suggesting that Ursula and "Doc" were relatives and Doc provided FF with assistance against her, hence him being considered a former ally. Whether they just randomly encountered him because Ursula and Doc were both in residence in Castle Frankenstein when the team came calling, or recruited his aid prior to the mission (perhaps because he would know the layout of the Castle) remains unrevealed, though given Orson's dad knew Doc from college, I'd lean towards it not being a coincidence and the latter option.

[Col_Fury]

Ah, gotcha. And yes, this very well could be a new, previously unseen von Frankenstein.

Here’s what I’ve been able to find that's missing for the von Frankensteins, and what would be needed if we change them all to von:

BARON VON FRANKENSTEIN/KONRAD DIPPEL
DSSS 37-FB

FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER'S MATE
MONF 2 (5:3 - 16:3)-FB
DSSS 37-FB
MONF 2 (16:4 - 19:1)-FB

*FRANKENSTEIN, ALPHONSE (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, ALPHONSE)
DSSS 37-FB
MONF 1-FB
MONF 3-FB

VON FRANKENSTEIN, ARBOGAST
DSSS 37-FB

*FRANKENSTEIN, BASIL (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. BASIL)
INV 31-FB

*FRANKENSTEIN, DR. LUDWIG (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. LUDWIG)
SS 7

*FRANKENSTEIN, ELIZABETH (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, ELIZABETH)
MONF 1-FB
……

*FRANKENSTEIN, ERNST (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, ERNST)
MONF 1-FB
DSSS 37-FB

VON FRANKENSTEIN, FRANK
DSSS 37-FB

*FRANKENSTEIN, LENORE (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, LENORE)
FMON 11

*FRANKENSTEIN, VERONICA (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, VERONICA)
FMON 16
……

*FRANKENSTEIN, VICTOR (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. VICTOR)
DSSS 37 (9:5)-FB
……

*FRANKENSTEIN, VINCENT (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, DR. VINCENT)
**MONF 9 (delete)
**MONF 10 (delete)
**MONF 11 (delete)
FMON 9
FMON 10
FMON 11

*FRANKENSTEIN, WILLIAM (change name to VON FRANKENSTEIN, WILLIAM)
MONF 1-FB
MU 2-FB-FB

[vanhornluke]

What about the Frankensteins and monsters that appear in the following? Are any of them the original monster? How should these be in MCP?

Marvel Tales #106
Suspense #20
Strange Tales #10
Strange Tales #15
Menace #7

[loki]

What about the Frankensteins and monsters that appear in the following? Are any of them the original monster? How should these be in MCP?

Marvel Tales #106
Suspense #20
Strange Tales #10
Strange Tales #15
Menace #7

Marvel Tales#106/1 - A film crew making a new Frankenstein movie shoot on location at Castle Frankenstein for added authenticity, but when they activate equipment left there they accidentally revive and run afoul of the "real Frankenstein's Monster." Given that a coachman who carries them close to the castle uses German vocabulary ("mein herr" for example) and not Swiss, this is probably the German castle. Nothing in the story to really tie it to a specific date, but if we assume that (similar to many other Atlas-era horror tales with nothing to tie them to the sliding timescale) this story takes place around the time of publication, we're at a period where the actual original monster is nowhere near the castle, so it's presumably one of the later models (either a "new" one or maybe one of the ones we know about - the one from IFGMOD for example, might fit okay. No Nazi uniform, so probably not the one from Invaders).

Suspense#20 - Castle Frankenstein, abandoned for two generations/25 years, becomes the residence of William Frankenstein, grandson of the "original Frankenstein who had created the immortal monster." So this is allegedly Victor's grandson, probably named after his grandfather's beloved deceased brother. Slightly awkward, because afaik Victor had no kids (his wife Elizabeth being murdered on her wedding night by the monster, and thereafter Victor became obsessed with hunting the creature rather than remarrying), and all later Frankensteins are descended from Victor's youngest brother Ernst. I guess Victor had a previously unrevealed kid with someone else, presumably out of wedlock (maybe a fling during college?). The new William appears relatively young - I'm guessing maybe mid-twenties - so we should be looking at a range of between maybe 40 to 80 years after the original monster was created, depending on how old William's dad was when William was born; this would place the story somewhere in the mid-1800s. However, a villager mentions the monster crippled him thirty years ago and the villagers march on the castle "for the second time in 25 years." So either 25 years is two generations and the Frankensteins are precocious, having kids before they hit their teens, or we might have another monster maker in the generation between Victor and William II. If the latter, then villagers know about it but William II doesn't, and is only aware of grandpa's work. The villagers murder William II, and his new monster, before realizing the new monster was actually gentle and kind.

Strange Tales I#10 - In the modern day (there are cars, of a style that is modern for the time of publication) John Kent discovers that "after his master was destroyed" torch-wielding villagers trapped the monster in the castle and destroyed him, but not before he created his own son (made using the same process that created him, and confirming that he was actually a genius). Visiting the castle, Kent discovers the still living monster, who pursues him, calling out clearly understandable words. A scared Kent flees and falls from a ledge to his death, only for the grieving monster to retrieve his body, revealing that Kent was the son he had created.

Kent's a new character. The castle could be either version, and his creation presumably has to be a fairly recent event since living unaging for decades would presumably have clued Kent in to the fact he wasn't normal. The bit about his master being killed and him living in the castle while working on a son also suggests this can't be the original monster; it might be one of the others we know about, like the First Line's Frank.

Strange Tales I#15 - the monster is living alone in a spooky castle, and scares himself after reading some horror stories. Really nothing to place it anywhere, identify the castle for certain, or which monster. Could easily be the same monster from the previous Strange Tales story.

Menace#7 - the monster digs himself from the grave, standing up in the air for the "first time in centuries." He goes for a wander, encounters fearful locals (who recognise him as the monster), who attack him with fire and accidentally set their own cottage alight. He rescues them from the flames, but other locals arrive and attack him, killing him. The couple he saved realize humans are the monsters, not the creature. Sounds like William's kind Frankenstein's Monster to me, though there's nothing to confirm this; the combination of his good nature, and that someone bothered to bury him rather than burning or dismembering him, as you might do in order to dispose of a dangerous version, makes me suggest this option. Burial suggests someone cared about the creature receiving a proper funeral, and the townsfolk in Suspense were remorseful for their slaying of the creature.

These could all be different monsters, unrelated to all the others we know of. Or some of these stories might be the same monster, maybe the pre-First Line stories of Frank.

[Leoparis]

Actually per the International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions, for German names you list by main name and put the particle after the first name. For German "von" is spelled in lower case.
Example:
Beethoven, Ludwig von

It's only if people with "Von" are American that you start with "Von". Correspondingly "Von" is spelled with an initial upper case.

Since
1) all Frankensteins are German (or Austrian),
2) the "von" is rarely used.
3) readers would look up Frankensteins under F rather than under V.

I suggest all Frankensteins be listed under F with "von" between parentheses if we have no record of the "von" being in actual use.

Frankenstein, Basil (von)

[dimadick]

Given that a coachman who carries them close to the castle uses German vocabulary ("mein herr" for example) and not Swiss, this is probably the German castle.

Not helpful. About 65% of Switzerland's area is inhabited by German speakers. See:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-sp ... witzerland
*"The 'German-speaking part of Switzerland ({{lang-de|Deutschschweiz}}, {{lang-fr|Suisse alémanique}}, {{lang-it|Svizzera tedesca}}, {{lang-rm|Svizra tudestga}}) comprises about 65 percent of Switzerland (North Western Switzerland, Eastern Switzerland, Central Switzerland, most of the Swiss Plateau and the greater part of the Swiss Alps)."
*"The variety of the German language spoken in Switzerland is called Swiss German which refers to any of the Alemannic dialects and which are divided into Low, High and Highest Alemannic. The only exception within German-speaking Switzerland is the municipality of Samnau] where an Austro-Bavarian dialect is spoken."
*"German is the sole official language in 17 Swiss cantons (Aargau, Appenzell Ausserrhoden, Appenzell Innerrhoden, Basel-Stadt, Basel-Landschaft, Glarus, Lucerne, Nidwalden, Obwalden, Schaffhausen, Schwyz, Solothurn, St. Gallen, Thurgau, Uri, Zug, and Zurich). French and German are co-official in 3 cantons (Bern, Fribourg, and Valais). In the trilingual canton of Graubünden, more than half the population speaks German, while most of the rest speak one of the other official languages, Romansh and Italian."

[dimadick]

Actually per the International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions, for German names you list by main name and put the particle after the first name. For German "von" is spelled in lower case.
Example:
Beethoven, Ludwig von

Not a von. His name was "Ludwig van Beethoven". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven

Beethoven was a German of Flemish descent.: "Beethoven was the grandson of Ludwig van Beethoven (1712–1773), a musician from the town of Mechelen in the Austrian Duchy of Brabant (in what is now the Flemish region of Belgium) who had moved to Bonn at the age of 21."

2) the "von" is rarely used.

"Von" translates to English "of" or "from". In German names it typically indicates noble descent. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von

"The abolition of the monarchies in Germany and Austria in 1919 meant that neither state has a privileged nobility, and both have exclusively republican governments.

In Germany, this means that legally ''von'' simply became an ordinary part of the surnames of the people who used it. There are no longer any legal privileges or constraints associated with this naming convention. According to German alphabetical sorting, people with ''von'' in their surnames – of noble or non-noble descent alike – are listed in telephone books and other files under the rest of their names (e.g., the economist Ludwig von Mises would have been found under ''M'' in the phone book rather than ''V'')."

In Austria, in contrast, not only were the privileges of the nobility abolished, their titles and prepositions were abolished as well in 1919. Thus, for example, ''Friedrich von Hayek'' became simply Friedrich Hayek. (See also Austrian nobility on this issue.)

In contrast to the peerage of the United Kingdom, the aristocracies of the German-speaking countries were held to include untitled nobility, although the names of nearly all the families falling into this category did include ''von'', ''zu'', ''von und zu'', ''von der'', ''von dem'', ''zum'', ''vom und zum'' or ''zur''. "

[Leoparis]

Thanks for the fascinating details. I love this stuff.

When I wrote "rarely used" I meant rarely used by the Frankenstein family members in the Marvel universe. And your explanations were very helpful to explain why.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Your information confirms the MCP should keep the Frankensteins under F.
It also tells us that, contrary to what I said, the "von" should not appear even between parentheses if there are no instances of it being used. If it is known to have been in use and only then, it appears after the first name.

FRANKENSTEIN, ARBOGAST VON (name changed)
DSSS 37-FB

FRANKENSTEIN, FRANK VON (name changed)
DSSS 37-FB

Victoria has further appearances:
FRANKENSTEIN, BARONESS VICTORIA VON
HM-S
W6 12/2-FB
W5 4-FB
W5 3
W5 8
W5 10
W6 1
W6 10
W6 12/1