Avengers #22 or Fantastic Four Annual #3

[Jason Doty]

working on a little project and just found a discrepancy between Iron Man and Thor, which is first Fantastic Four Annual #3 or Avengers #22?

[StrayLamb]

In A 22, Iron Man is depicted in a single panel from his current battle with an android in TOS 72, while Thor is depicted in a single panel, which is a flashback, showing him returning to Asgard in JIM 122. So Thor's appearance is before FF@ 3, and Iron Man's appearance is after FF@ 3.

[Somebody]

If it's a flashback (and are we talking intended flashback or "reinterpreted" flashback?), it should be A 22-FB.

[Michael]

It's clearly intended to be taking place at the same time as the rest of the issue- according to the narrator,it's why Thor can't show up for the main plot. Olshevsky decided it was a flashback in the Avengers Index 1.

[StrayLamb]

If it's a flashback (and are we talking intended flashback or "reinterpreted" flashback?), it should be A 22-FB.

It's a flashback in so far as when reading A22, the scene has already occurred previously in time. It's not a flashback for Thor, who experiences the panel at a specific point in his own timeline.

It's clearly intended to be taking place at the same time as the rest of the issue- according to the narrator,it's why Thor can't show up for the main plot. Olshevsky decided it was a flashback in the Avengers Index 1.

It has to be a flashback panel, as Thor has already taken off for Asgard in JIM 122, as shown in his chronology, and can't be anywhere else after FF@ 3 except in JIM 124 though T 140, which is during the time that A 22 occurs.. So for Thor, his appearance in A 22 must be prior to FF@ 3, although all of the other characters appear in A 22 after FF@ 3..

JIM 122 (1 - 2)
A 22
JIM 122 (3 - 16)
JIM 123
FF@ 3 (1 - 12:3)

Although the caption reads "Thor is returning to Asgard..", the only way it fits is for the caption to be reinterpreted as "Thor has returned to Asgard.."

Iron Man's caption reads "Iron Man has his hands full battling a giant android right now.."

[Russ Chappell]

It's a flashback in so far as when reading A22, the scene has already occurred previously in time.

That sounds like a flashback (drop the part about "in so far as when reading").

It's not a flashback for Thor, who experiences the panel at a specific point in his own timeline.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "flashback for Thor," but if it's a flashback, and Thor appears in it, then it's a flashback for Thor. If you're contending that it's a flashback, but shouldn't be listed as flashback in Thor's chronology, I disagree.

[StrayLamb]

It's not a flashback for Thor, who experiences the panel at a specific point in his own timeline.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "flashback for Thor," but if it's a flashback, and Thor appears in it, then it's a flashback for Thor. If you're contending that it's a flashback, but shouldn't be listed as flashback in Thor's chronology, I disagree.

I'm making no such contention, merely attempting to explain, in my own faltering way, how it is that Thor appears in A22 prior to FF@ 3, while the other characters appear in A 22 after FF@ 3. The topic has evolved from a simple question of character placement to a discussion on what constitutes a flashback.

[Russ Chappell]

The topic has evolved from a simple question of character placement to a discussion on what constitutes a flashback.

I understand that, and I'm simply chiming in with my opinion that this constitutes a flashback.

And when you say above that it's not a flashback for Thor, I'm saying that I disagree; I think it is a flashback for Thor.

[Michael]

Count me in the "not a flashback" camp. It's not a flashback- Thor doesn't interact with any of the other characters in this issue. And it's not intended to be taking place in the past. It's a separate plot thread that later chronological analysis determined was taking place in the past. When we place issues, we often assume that different threads are taking place at different times without labeling them flashbacks.

[Russ Chappell]

It's not a flashback- Thor doesn't interact with any of the other characters in this issue.

Non sequitur. Thor's lack of interaction with other characters has no bearing on whether or not it's a flashback.

And it's not intended to be taking place in the past.

Agreed.

It's a separate plot thread that later chronological analysis determined was taking place in the past.

Agreed.

I think everyone here agrees that it was not intended to take place in the past. I also think that everyone agrees that subsequent chronological analysis forces us to re-examine events and subsequently place this panel in the past.

I can only point to the Key for our definition of a Flashback:

Flashback: a scene which takes place out of chronological order, within the confines of a particular story.

I'm just saying, it sounds like a flashback to me.

[Michael]

It's not a flashback- Thor doesn't interact with any of the other characters in this issue.

Non sequitur. Thor's lack of interaction with other characters has no bearing on whether or not it's a flashback.

What I meant was this- if Thor interacted with Hawkeye on page 2 and then appeared on page 15 in a scene that took place before he met Hawkeye on page 2, I think we'd all agree that page 15 was a flashback. A COMPLETELY separate plot thread complicates matters. But I'll concede that this arguably meets the definition in the Key of a flashback.

[Somebody]

I think everyone here agrees that it was not intended to take place in the past. I also think that everyone agrees that subsequent chronological analysis forces us to re-examine events and subsequently place this panel in the past.

So, wait, why was it "forced" to be placed in the past, again?

[Russ Chappell]

I haven't yet looked at it myself, but:

It has to be a flashback panel, as Thor has already taken off for Asgard in JIM 122, as shown in his chronology, and can't be anywhere else after FF@ 3 except in JIM 124 though T 140, which is during the time that A 22 occurs.. So for Thor, his appearance in A 22 must be prior to FF@ 3, although all of the other characters appear in A 22 after FF@ 3..

JIM 122 (1 - 2)
A 22
JIM 122 (3 - 16)
JIM 123
FF@ 3 (1 - 12:3)

Although the caption reads "Thor is returning to Asgard..", the only way it fits is for the caption to be reinterpreted as "Thor has returned to Asgard.."

[StrayLamb]

In Thor: Official Index to the Marvel Universe, in the listing for JIM 122, it states Thor is "also in Av #22, '65 fb," so the appearance is listed as a Flashback there. I believe it was first postulated by George Olshevski.