Fantastic Four 4 (2013) flashbacks

[Leoparis]

fb 1 Richards as a student on his 3rd doctorate visits the house of Sue Storm's aunt Mary, looking for a place. Sees her for the first time.
fb 2 He moves in, helped by Ben Grimm and Sue
fb 3 He takes her out for the first time. Mary is present.
fb 4 Moves out as he can't concentrate on his 3rd doctorate studies. Sue kisses him.

[Michael]

Note that Sue is closer to Reed's age than in previous flashbacks and their attraction is mutual from the beginning, instead of an initial one-sided crush on Sue's part.

[Leoparis]

Yeah, I've noticed that. Bleeding Cool did a feature on it.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/02/13/ ... ive-years/

[Paul Bourcier]

So how do these new scenes fit into existing chronologies?

[Russ Chappell]

Okay, dredging this up again.

Any thoughts on this?

Keep in mind that Reed is working on his third doctorate during all four of these flashbacks (although we may be able to squint on that; it is Reed's remembrance, and when you have 7 or more doctorates, they all tend to blend together).

[StrayLamb]

Keep in mind that Reed is working on his third doctorate during all four of these flashbacks (although we may be able to squint on that; it is Reed's remembrance, and when you have 7 or more doctorates, they all tend to blend together).

Are you speaking from experience, Dr Chappell?

In that FF flashback shown on the Bleeding Cool page, Sue is remembering the time she met Reed. Perhaps Reed remembers her as being older, and because Reed is older than her, Sue remembers herself being younger. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between?

Does anyone know which issue of FF that flashback panel is in? I looked back thru John Byrne's FF issues with early flashbacks listed in Reed and Sue's chronologies, but couldn't find anything matching. Is it based on a previous flashback somewhere? Excuse my ignorance. Just wondering if there's a definitive flashback somewhere that's not a memory. Otherwise, the version given in the Official History of the MU is probably the correct version. After all, that's the Official History (or was at that time).

[michel]

Does anyone know which issue of FF that flashback panel is in?

It's from FF #291

[StrayLamb]

Thanks Michel. I knew that you would have that at your fingertips!

There's no FF 291-FB listed in either Reed or Sue's chronologies, so it must have been shown elsewhere. I'm wondering if that elsewhere is also a memory, or an omniscient narrative.

[Russ Chappell]

Was there something like this in one of those "Before the Fantastic Four" limited series?

[StrayLamb]

Nada. In fact, in BFF:STORMS 1-3, Johnny is already 15, and Sue is just about to go to California, so this is not very long before FF 1. The only listing for Sue prior to this is in FF 32-FB (8:1), which shows Sue and Johnny with their parents. Sue looks about 12 or 13 here. So the FF 291-FB should probably be listed between FF 32-FB & BFF:STORMS 1 for Sue.

Placing this for Reed is a little trickier. He has the following listings..

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
---
FF SPEC-FB [Reed dorming with Von Doom]
FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1)-FB [During the war]
SGTF 3 [During the war]
M/:LG 11 [Reed is a doctoral student at State University]
FFWED [Reed and Sue are going together]
FF:ADM-FB [I don’t have this]
FF3 18-FB [Immediately before BFF:REED 1-FB]
BFF:REED 1-FB [Reed’s adventure with Alyssa Moy, just after his time with the army]
BFF:REED 2-FB [Reed’s adventure with Alyssa Moy]
BFF:REED 3-FB [Reed’s adventure with Alyssa Moy]
FF 555 (1 - 2)-FB [Reed at the University of Vienna with Alyssa Moy]
FF 513/2 [Reed kissing Alyssa Moy]
BDOOM 4-FB-FB [Reed is working for NASA]
FF:FF 5-FB [a photo of Reed and Sue, looking the same as they do in the rest of FF:FF]
FF 271 (7:3 - 13)-FB [Reed and Sue are together, just before FF 1]
---

It looks to me like M/:LG 11 should be placed before FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1)-FB, & FFWED (1st listing) should go after FF 513/2. Reed’s adventure with Alyssa is stated to be just after he left the army, and should go before he starts going out with Sue. I don’t have FF:ADM to check that flashback.

I would say that for Reed, FF 291-FB should go between FF 513/2 & FFWED (1st listing).

[Leoparis]

The earliest time the meeting between Reed and Sue was shown was in What If? #42 (Sue is a university student and Reed an assistant professor). There was no reason at the time to think that the 616 version would be different since the point of divergence was later. Then Byrne wrote FF 291.

However in FF 281 Sue was manipulated by Psycho-Man who turned her into Malice. In FF 283 Sue goes to the microverse with the FF for vengeance and again she is manipulated and made to feel like an immature girl with an increased age difference with Reed (the storyline that led her to change her name to Invisible Woman).

Also, in FF 291 NY is under the spell of a reality-altering mutant creating a time storm.

So we can reasonably assume her memory in FF 291 is affected by the earlier Psycho-Man influence. That influence was still there in FF 283 when she was asking for vengeance, in FF 284 when she exacted her vengeance and stated "The Invisible Girl died when Psycho-Man twisted her soul." And she reverts to Malice later (don't know the number), which means that Psycho-Man's influence was never properly fully erased.

In essence, what Nick said in his earlier post but with an intra-universe explanation.

[Col_Fury]

According to History of the Marvel Universe #2, Reed and Ben fought in the Sin-Cong conflict before they went to college, and before they met Victor. It's also explicit that they didn't fight in WWII, despite an editorial note in SGTF 3.

The "Maj. Richards" seen in SGTF 3 is most likely Nathaniel Richards, Reed's father. He was active with the Brotherhood of the Shield in the 1950s and therefore would be the right age (and he's a time traveler so Reed's age isn't affected). If we squint at the editor's note in SGTF 3 and interpret it to say that Maj. Richards' son is now known as Mr. Fantastic, that works. If so:

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
……
FF SPEC-FB
FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1)-FB
**SGTF 3 (delete)
M/:LG 11
……

*RICHARDS, MAJ. NATHANIEL (add rank)
*SGTF 3
SHIELD 5 (15 - 18)-FB
SHIELD 6-FB
……

Alternately, I suppose "RICHARDS, MAJ." could be Reed's uncle (and therefore Nathaniel's brother) but I don't see the need for that complication.

Similarly, CSAV 7 needs to be removed from Ben Grimm's chronology and moved into a "GRIMM, LT." listing, alongside the missing M/TIO 77-FB.

I have it in my head that Reed met Sue before he started working at NASA. I think that makes sense; would Reed still be working on (another) doctorates while working at NASA?

So for Reed, things need to be reshuffled into:

childhood appearances (ASM 535-FB)
Sin-Cong conflict / life during wartime appearances (FF 11 (6:6 - 7:1)-FB, HOTM/U 2-FB)
shortly after wartime (BFF:REED)
college appearances (FF@ 2-FBs, FF SPEC-FB, FF 555 (1 - 2)-FB, etc.)
Reed meets Sue / late Reed college / Reed possibly asst. prof. (FF 291-FB)
Reed at NASA (BDOOM 4-FB-FB)
shortly before FF 1 / Reed still doing space / NASA stuff (FF 271-FB)

[Leoparis]

Marvel Knights Four #4, Reed's grandfather, John Richards, enlisted for WWII two weeks before his 20th birthday. He was still a paratrooper in June 1944. It's hard to see how he could become a major in so short a time but he's the best Richards to be a WWII veteran since there is actual story confirmation that he was.

[Russ Chappell]

So we can reasonably assume her memory in FF 291 is affected by the earlier Psycho-Man influence.

I would tend to lean in that direction. Sue's flashback says she's twelve years old, but she looks significantly younger, and that's a Raggedy Ann doll on the floor at her feet, something more closely associated with a four-year-old. So something is wonky with that flashback.

[Col_Fury]

Works for me!

RICHARDS, MAJ. JOHN
SGFT 3
FOUR 4-FB