The Thing v3 Notes

[Leoparis]

With the note referring to a classic era I expected the series to take place at the time of the first Thing series. Hercules was in his classic Kirby outfit until A 252, Feb 1985. All the characters were from the eighties and earlier.

But the last issues threw a spanner in the works. The plot revolves around events that have to take place after MGN:DS&DOOM (1989) and suddenly we have to move forward because Alicia was replaced by a Skrull spy from 1984 to 1991. The Baxter building had been destroyed and there is no period during the 1990s during which Ben and Alicia are a couple. Even when they meet again in FF3 45 (2001) after the new Baxter Building, they say, "I don't love you anymore" "I do not love you either" and the next time their status is mentioned in FF 512 Jun 2004 "We ain't a couple no more".

The last time an FF mini-series referred to a classic era it took place after Valeria's birth in the Waid era. So it seems that "classic era" includes things as recent as 15 years ago.

Hercules resumes the Kirby costume in 1998.

Here are my chronology notes:
#1
"A new story from a classic era"
"Years ago"
Baxter Building (1961 to 1985, 2001 to now)
Alicia (as Ben's fiancée, 1962 to 1984, 1992 to now)
Willie Lumpkin
Reed Richards (1961 to Oct 93 - Dec 95 to now)
Hercules (first meets in M/TIO 44-FB, 1978)
USSR "It's Russia now"
Alicia, "I left the ring you gave me on the table"

#2
#3
Champion of the Universe (introduced M/TIO@ 7, 1982)

#4
Terrax
Faceless One
Berserker (introduced Avengers 207, 1981)

#5
Dr Doom "I made a pact with the Sorcerer Supreme to help my mother" (follow-up to Doctor Strange and Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment, 1989)

#6


Chronologcal analysis:
The Cynthia Von Doom plot in #5 means this series has to occur after M/GN:DS&DOOM (1989). The presence of Alicia and the reference to the end of the USSR mean this is past 1991. Unless this is a mistake, the appearance of the Baxter Building means this is past 2001. This cannot be between FF 381 and FF 407 when Reed is presumed dead.

There are surprisingly few spots where to place the series, whether because Alicia is kidnapped, Ben or Reed have their face scarred, Reed or the FF are dead, Ben or because Alicia are in couple with someone else.

First option, 1990s: After M/GN:DS&DOOM, the fall of the Soviet Union and the return of Alicia in FF 358.
Available spot: Between FF 361 and 362. While there are two advantages, the drawbacks are many: Four Freedoms plaza replaces the Baxter building, Hercules has the wrong look, Alicia is the needy partner (Ben is the needy one in TG3.)

Available spots: Between 412 and 413. Between 414 and 415. Drawbacks: Four Freedoms Plaza, Hercules with wrong look, Ben and Alicia not a couple.

Second option: After the return of the Baxter Building (FF3 40) and Alicia's breakup with Norrin Radd (DEF2 1) but before Reed getting scarred in FF 500.

Available spots: Between FF3 45 & 46. Between FF3 49 & 50. Between FF3 50 & 50/3. Between FF3 50/3 & 51. Between FF3 54 & 50/4. Between FF3 50/4 & 55. Between FF3 55 & 56. Between FF3 56 & 57. Between FF3 59 & 60. Between FF3 60 & 61. Between FF3 61 & 62. Between FF3 64 & 65. Between FF3 66 & 67. Drawback: this is between FF3 45 "I don't love you anymore" "I don't love you either" and FF 512 "We ain't a couple no more".

Third option: after FF 511, during Waid and Aguirre-Sacasa's run. Drawback: Ben and Alicia are never shown to be a couple.

Fourth option: after the Thing Vol 2 series. It might be rather recent to be a classic era, "years ago" and rather late for Dr Doom to address his mother's place in the death realm. The advantages are that the stars are aligned for Ben and Alicia to be a couple again after TG2 8 and FOUR 30, and this places Thing Vol 3 after Vol 2.

Notes on MASTERS, ALICIA chronology
FF 358-FB
FF 358 Nov 91
FF 359
FF 360 return to Earth
break...
FF 361 Feb 92 sorts out belongings
break
FF 365 May 92 "Ben has been avoiding me." Sharon Ventura introduces herself as Ben's girlfriend.
break
FF 366 "Ben, he has found someone else." Sharon back in town, Infinity War
MSMK 41 (13:3 - 15:1)
MSMK 44 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB
MSMK 41 (15:2 - 20:3)
MSMK 44 (10:5)-FB
FF 369 (6 - 7) Oct 92
MSMK 44
FF 369 (13) kidnapped
FF 370-BTS
FF 371
FF 372
FF 373
(Thing gets scarred in 374 until 410)
FF 376 May 93
Reed dies
FF 393
FF 394 Nov 94
FFOR 13 Nov 95
(Reed returns bearded in 407)
FF 416 Sep 96
FF disappear to Counter Earth
SS3 123 Dec 96
M/HOL 1996/3-FB
M/HOL 1996/3
TB 2
SS3 126
SS3 127
SS3 128
SS3 129
SS3 130
SS3 131
SS3 132
SS3 133
SS3 134
SS3 135
SS3 136
SS3 137 Mar 98
FF3 3
FF3 4
SS3 138-FB
SS3 138
SS3 139
SS3 140
SS3 141
SS3 142
SS3 143
SS3 144
SS3 145
SS3 145/2
SS3 146 Nov 98
(FF Heroes Return)
GLCTS:DEV 1
GLCTS:DEV 2
GLCTS:DEV 3
GLCTS:DEV 4
GLCTS:DEV 5
GLCTS:DEV 6
FF3 27 Mar 2000 wedding of Sue to Doom/Reed
FF3 37-BTS Jan 2001 letter to Ben
Baxter Building returns
FF3 45 Sep 2001 "I don't love you anymore" "I do not love you either" "friends"
DEF2 1 Mar 2001 Surfer's girlfriend breaking up
DEF2 5 Jul 2001 broke up with Surfer
CA3 48-BTS Dec 2001 sculpting Bucky
SMTGLW 21-BTS Feb 2003 visits stepdad in jail
FF 509 Mar 2004 Reed scarred since FF 500
FF 512 Jun 2004 "We ain't a couple no more"
FF 512/2-BTS on the phone with Sue
FOUR 1 Apr 2004 talking with Sue
FOUR 2 talking with Sue
FOUR 3 talking with Sue
FOUR 10 talking with Sue
FOUR 12 Jan 2005 impersonating Sue
FF 518-BTS Nov 2004 babysitting Frank & Val
FF 520-VO Jan 2005 voice on phone with Ben
FF 523 babysitting Galan
FF 523-FB
FF 524-BTS May 2005 babysitting Frank & Val
break
FF 525
FF 526 Jun 2005
FOUR 14 (2:3 - 2:4)-FB
FOUR 13 operated on by Puppet Master
FOUR 14 Mar 2005 operated on by Puppet Master, talking with Ben
FF:FOES 1 Mar 2005
FF:FOES 3
FOUR 21 Oct 2005 Sue's birthday party
FF:HOM 3
SM&FF 2
FOUR 25 Feb 2006 with Ben in workshop
TG2 1 Jan 2006 new boyfriend
TG2 2
TG2 3
FOUR 30 Jul 2006 double dating, with Ben visiting her father
TG2 5
TG2 6
TG2 7-FB
TG2 7
TG2 8 (16:6)-FB
TG2 8 (10:2 - 13:4)-FB
TG2 8 (17 - 18)-FB
TG2 8 Aug 2006 new boyfriend leaves
FSON:IM-BTS Aug 2007


Suggested corrections:
BERSERKER
A 208-FB
A 207-FB
{A 207}
A 208
*TG3 4 add
*TG3 5 add

CHAMPION/TRYCO SLATTERUS
SH 11
*TG3 3 add here
*TG3 4 add here
ANNI:RO 3

DEATH
ASM 503
*TG3 1 add here
*TG3 2 add here
*TG3 3 add here
*TG3 4 add here
*TG3 5 add here
*TG3 6 add here
ANNI:PRO (1)
ANNI 6

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM
FF SPEC
FOHS:A (23 - 28:2)
*TG3 5 add here
*TG3 6 add here
W3 42

FACELESS ONE
AT 2/2
AT 3/2
LCHFH 9
MSM 23
*TG3 4 add
*TG3 5 add

HERCULES
TG2 8 Aug 2006
*TG3 1 ADD HERE
CW 1-7
IH3 106 etc Amadeus Cho

LUMPKIN, LEMUEL "WILLIE"
X2 187/2
*FOUR 30 Jul 2006 move from here
M/M:FFF
TG2 8-FB
*FOUR 30 Jul 2006 move here
*TG3 1 add here
FF 543-FB May 2007

MASTERS, ALICIA
TG2 3
*FOUR 30 Jul 2006 move from here
TG2 5
TG2 6
TG2 7-FB
TG2 7
TG2 8 (16:6)-FB
TG2 8 (10:2 - 13:4)-FB
TG2 8 (17 - 18)-FB
TG2 8 Aug 2006 new boyfriend leaves
*FOUR 30 Jul 2006 double dating move here
*TG3 1 add here
*TG3 4 add here
*TG3 6 add here
FSON:IM-BTS Aug 2007

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
TG2 8 (17 - 18)-FB
TG2 8
*TG3 1 add here
*TG3 3 add here
M/HOL 2006/3

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
IH3 95
*TG3 4 add here
ANNI:PRO

TERRAX/TYROS
SENTRY2 1
*TG3 4 add here
*TG3 5 add here
GLX-MAS /5
ANNI:SS 2

THING II/MAJ. BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
TG2 8
*TG3 1 add here
*TG3 2 add here
*TG3 3 add here
*TG3 4 add here
*TG3 5 add here
*TG3 6 add here
M/HOL 2006/3

VON DOOM, CYNTHIA
M/GN:DS&DOOM
*TG3 6 add here

[Jason Doty]

Another option: Can the Doctor Doom/Strange story be moved back in time? Would their be any chronological issues?

[Jason Doty]

Okay, I think I have this figured out. M/GN:DS&DOOM needs to be moved to sometime shortly after DS2 #62 (Dec 1983). The only clue I see would be the vampire eradication reference. I'm not sure what pushed this in to the '92 issues when it came out in '89.

Looking at the other characters I think the entirety of Thing v3 need to come between pages of FF 258 after Doom abducts Terrax (around the time of M/TIO 96) and before he supes him up, between pages 19 and 20.

When did Alicia get the short hair?

[Leoparis]

I considered moving M/GN:DS&DD earlier and there was ground for doing so. In Marvel Age 78 Roger Stern explains the graphic novel has been years in the making, since 1982 in fact. And Dr Strange 57 is a prologue for it, reprinted in the latest collection. So it was theoretically possible to place it after DS 57 or rather DS 62 as the destruction of Earth vampires is mentioned.

Unfortunately Doom's quest to free his mother from Mephisto is also featured in FF@ 20 (1987) and the FF lineup with Crystal, Four Freedoms Plaza, Kristoff Vernard as Dr. Doom and Franklin Richards' history prevent moving FF @20 earlier.

M/GN:DS&DD and FF@ 20 deal with freeing Cynthia Von Doom from hell. TG3 deals with the later attempt to deliver her from Death's realm.

I don't think time travel can help. TG3 has to occur chronologically after his mother is freed from Mephisto.

Alicia's chronology from 256 to 262 has her in the hospital recovering from Annihilus' attack. (I reviewed this period when I tried to place Fantastic Four 1 2 3 4.

There are also panels in TG3 issue six showing Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Silver Surfer & Champion of the Universe, Agatha Harkness. Apart from Surfer & Champion (early SS3 series, 1987), I have not identified if they refer to actual panels from past comics.

The Marvel Age article mentions the difficulties of publishing the DS&DD story at a time that matched with the ongoing developments of the characters involved.

[Jason Doty]

There are also panels in TG3 issue six showing Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Silver Surfer & Champion of the Universe, Agatha Harkness. Apart from Surfer & Champion (early SS3 series, 1987), I have not identified if they refer to actual panels from past comics.

I think those panels are contemporary to the issue. Since, Agatha Harkness senses Thing and waves back.

[StrayLamb]

Unfortunately Doom's quest to free his mother from Mephisto is also featured in FF@ 20 (1987) and the FF lineup with Crystal, Four Freedoms Plaza, Kristoff Vernard as Dr. Doom and Franklin Richards' history prevent moving FF @20 earlier.

M/GN:DS&DD and FF@ 20 deal with freeing Cynthia Von Doom from hell. TG3 deals with the later attempt to deliver her from Death's realm.

I don't think time travel can help. TG3 has to occur chronologically after his mother is freed from Mephisto.

For what it's worth, Doom's quest to free Cynthia from Hell goes back to Astonishing Tales 8/3 (1971), in which Doom summons Mephisto in an attempt to redeem his dead mother’s soul, as he does every year.

[Leoparis]

There are also panels in TG3 issue six showing Thor, Hulk, Spider-Man, Silver Surfer & Champion of the Universe, Agatha Harkness. Apart from Surfer & Champion (early SS3 series, 1987), I have not identified if they refer to actual panels from past comics.

I think those panels are contemporary to the issue. Since, Agatha Harkness senses Thing and waves back.

Well, if all those panels were from the same month, that would point toward a placement. But if Champion is from 1987, we are in the period when "Alicia" is Johnny's girlfriend.

Thor seems drawn in the Simonson style but by 1987 he was not drawn by Simonson except for the covers and the battle vs the Midgard Serpent, which this panel obviously is not.

[Jason Doty]

Could this be slotted after Alicia returns, between FF 358 and FF 373?

[Midnighter]

Could this be slotted after Alicia returns, between FF 358 and FF 373?

Uhm... There is a problem with Thor, if is the classic Thor and not Eric Masterson, if the panel in issue 6 is meant to be contemporary to that story.