Marvel Team-Up # 1 (1972/03) placement

[intp]

I never liked the placement of M/TU 1 (1972/03) between Asm 99-100 (1971/08-09) and FF 104-105 (1970/11-12), given the large cover date disparity. I vaguely remember from Olshevky's M/TU Index that he placed M/TU 1 between Asm 99-100 with only a cursory explanation as to why; I'll have to dig up that issue to see if he said more but as I recall, he didn't give much of a rationale for that particular placement (though his analysis was generally detailed and excellent in his Asm, FF and Avengers indices).

I went back and tried to figure out an alternate placement, which I suggest here.

I've worked out a placement between Asm 104-105 (1972/01-02) and FF 118-119 (1972/01-02) which seems plausible and doesn't seem to contradict anything; that would place M/TU 1 much closer to Asm and FF cover-date wise.

In M/TU # 1, it's Christmas Eve. Spidey, on Sandman's trail, visits Johnny at the Baxter Building. Johnny says he should be with the rest of the team at Whisper Hill but isn't due to 'girlfriend problems.' The rest of the team is at Whisper Hill for a vacation with Franklin in FF # 117, after the Over-Mind story; Johnny instead went to Boston briefly (Sub-Mariner # 44-46) then went to look for Crystal at the Great Refuge in FF 117 (footnote in FF 117 indicates he's there after SUB 44) but no one there knows where she is; he then goes to Whisper Hill (still in FF 117) to consult with Agatha Harkness, taxing his flying power to the limit. He didn't know that the rest of the team had gone to Whisper Hill after FF 116, as he flew off impulsively at the end of FF 116.

In FF # 117, a flashback shows Crystal arriving with Lockjaw in the future immediately after she left the team in FF # 105, where she is knocked out by Diablo, who is there after Marvel Super-Heroes # 20. In FF 117, Johnny sees Crystal in a Central American Country in Agatha's crystal ball with Lockjaw and Diablo so he heads there on his own. (Diablo had gone there after further planning in order to take over for a power base in his private war with Dr. Doom.)

In FF 118, Johnny arrives to find Crystal and Lockjaw under Diablo's control; the rest of the team arrives to help; Crystal is freed from Diablo's control but goes back to the Great Refuge to help against Maximus; the FF including Johnny leave. There's a fairly clean break between FF 118-119.

I propose the it would be plausible if the FF (except Torch) went back to Whisper Hill to finish their vacation while Torch stayed in New York due to his depression about losing Crystal again, albeit temporarily (or so he thought at the time). Spidey then encounters him in M/TU 1 when it's Christmas Eve and the rest of the FF are still at Whisper Hill; Johnny refers to his 'girlfriend problems' as the reason he's not at Whisper Hill.

There's a fairly clean break between Asm 104-105. Peter went to New York in Asm 103 shortly after Asm 102 as he didn't want to have Gwen worry about being gone too long, after which he goes with Jameson and Gwen to the Savage Land in Asm 103-104. He is back in New York in Asm 105.

I think the Christmas Eve reference can be taken as topical as M/TU 1 would have been released around December 1971.

Sandman would still be appearing in M/TU 1 (1972/03) between IH2 138 (1971/04) and FF 129 (1972/12).

So I initially propose placing M/TU 1 between Asm 104-105 and FF 118-119 which dovetails well with cover dates.

This is only a preliminary suggested placement; I'll do further analysis to see where to place M/TU 2-4, particularly M/TU 2 as Sandman appears again there before FF 129. At some point I'll post suggested placements for the various characters in M/TU 1-4.

Comments and criticisms are welcome; I'm hoping this suggestion is plausible.

[dimadick]

In M/TU # 1, it's Christmas Eve. Spidey, on Sandman's trail, visits Johnny at the Baxter Building. Johnny says he should be with the rest of the team at Whisper Hill but isn't due to 'girlfriend problems.'

The issue contains a somewhat pointless battle between heroes and villain. Spidey and the Torch want to stop the Sandman's scheme, but have no idea what it is. Sandman's only plan is to have his annual visit with his mother. Despite all the Christmas references, the only major plot point is that Sandman is trying to get in touch with his mother, indicating that he has a softer side. This could be places at other points of the year, with little problem.

he then goes to Whisper Hill (still in FF 117) to consult with Agatha Harkness, taxing his flying power to the limit. He didn't know that the rest of the team had gone to Whisper Hill after FF 116, as he flew off impulsively at the end of FF 116.

Harkness only reveals cryptic information that Crystal is still alive, but beyond the known world. Which if true, indicates that Crystal was still off-Earth at this point.

There's a fairly clean break between FF 118-119.

FF 118 ends with Crystal leaving for Attilan. She is under the impression that Maximus still rules Attilan, but he was deposed in Avengers vol. 1 #95 (January, 1972).

In FF 119, the Black Panther is held captive in Rudyarda. The Thing and the Human Torch are send to rescue him. Mr. Fantastic is secretly trying to develop a means for Crystal to be able to live outside of the Inhumans' great refuge.

There are no close connections between the main events of the two issues.

There's a fairly clean break between Asm 104-105. Peter went to New York in Asm 103 shortly after Asm 102 as he didn't want to have Gwen worry about being gone too long, after which he goes with Jameson and Gwen to the Savage Land in Asm 103-104. He is back in New York in Asm 105.

*In ASM 102, Spidey has 6 arms. Spidey uses a sample of Dr. Michael Morbius' blood to cure himself. Subplots include Gwen Stacy frantically searching for the missing Peter Parker, and the Daily Bugle facing financial problems.
*In ASM 103, John Jonah Jameson finances a mission in the Savage Land. It is a publicity stunt to improve circulation. Gwen Stacy is recruited by Jameson for this mission. In the Savage Land, Stacy is captured by Kraven the Hunter.
*In ASM 104, Kraven chooses Stacy as his new mate. Ka-Zar defeats Kraven. Peter Parker is thought to have died after an encounter with Gog, but surprises everyone when he returns.
*In ASM 105, Spidey has just returned from the Savage Land. Randy Robertson organizes a protest against the Daily Bugle, which escalates into a riot. Harry Osborn exits the hospital, following his recent drug overdose. Flash Thompson has just returned from the Vietnam War. Mary-Jane Watson is flirting with Peter Parker, despite the fact that he is involved in a relationship with Gwen Stacy. Spencer Smythe figures that he can use the Spider-Slayer for personal profit instead of targeting Spidey again.

Not much time since to has passed between these issues.

[intp]

In M/TU # 1, it's Christmas Eve. Spidey, on Sandman's trail, visits Johnny at the Baxter Building. Johnny says he should be with the rest of the team at Whisper Hill but isn't due to 'girlfriend problems.'

The issue contains a somewhat pointless battle between heroes and villain. Spidey and the Torch want to stop the Sandman's scheme, but have no idea what it is. Sandman's only plan is to have his annual visit with his mother. Despite all the Christmas references, the only major plot point is that Sandman is trying to get in touch with his mother, indicating that he has a softer side. This could be places at other points of the year, with little problem.

Agreed that the Christmas reference is probably mostly topical.

he then goes to Whisper Hill (still in FF 117) to consult with Agatha Harkness, taxing his flying power to the limit. He didn't know that the rest of the team had gone to Whisper Hill after FF 116, as he flew off impulsively at the end of FF 116.

Harkness only reveals cryptic information that Crystal is still alive, but beyond the known world. Which if true, indicates that Crystal was still off-Earth at this point.

True, but in the current Torch placement, between FF 104-105, Crystal is still with Johnny (she didn't leave until FF 105, due to supposed sensitivity to pollution outside the Great Refuge), so the reference to girlfriend problems in M/TU 1 makes no sense. Nor is there any particular reason for the rest of the team to have gone to Whisper Hill between FF 104-105. I think Roy was making a direct reference to current events in FF at the time of M/TU 1's publication, which had the rest of the team in Whisper Hill in FF 117. The girlfriend problems also ties in to Johnny's anger at the end of FF 116 at still being separated from Crystal while Reed has Sue and Ben has Alicia.

There's a fairly clean break between FF 118-119.

FF 118 ends with Crystal leaving for Attilan. She is under the impression that Maximus still rules Attilan, but he was deposed in Avengers vol. 1 #95 (January, 1972).

In FF 119, the Black Panther is held captive in Rudyarda. The Thing and the Human Torch are send to rescue him. Mr. Fantastic is secretly trying to develop a means for Crystal to be able to live outside of the Inhumans' great refuge.

There are no close connections between the main events of the two issues.

Not quite sure I understand your point here. My only point was that there was time between FF 118-119 to fit the events of M/TU 1.

There's a fairly clean break between Asm 104-105. Peter went to New York in Asm 103 shortly after Asm 102 as he didn't want to have Gwen worry about being gone too long, after which he goes with Jameson and Gwen to the Savage Land in Asm 103-104. He is back in New York in Asm 105.

*In ASM 102, Spidey has 6 arms. Spidey uses a sample of Dr. Michael Morbius' blood to cure himself. Subplots include Gwen Stacy frantically searching for the missing Peter Parker, and the Daily Bugle facing financial problems.
*In ASM 103, John Jonah Jameson finances a mission in the Savage Land. It is a publicity stunt to improve circulation. Gwen Stacy is recruited by Jameson for this mission. In the Savage Land, Stacy is captured by Kraven the Hunter.
*In ASM 104, Kraven chooses Stacy as his new mate. Ka-Zar defeats Kraven. Peter Parker is thought to have died after an encounter with Gog, but surprises everyone when he returns.
*In ASM 105, Spidey has just returned from the Savage Land. Randy Robertson organizes a protest against the Daily Bugle, which escalates into a riot. Harry Osborn exits the hospital, following his recent drug overdose. Flash Thompson has just returned from the Vietnam War. Mary-Jane Watson is flirting with Peter Parker, despite the fact that he is involved in a relationship with Gwen Stacy. Spencer Smythe figures that he can use the Spider-Slayer for personal profit instead of targeting Spidey again.

Not much time since to has passed between these issues.

That's true, but there are always problems with placement. There's a caption by Stan at the beginning of ASM 105 that Peter has just returned from the Savage Land but that can be ignored imo in favor of placing the M/TU 1 story between ASM 104-105.

I still think it makes more sense to place M/TU 1 further forward in time than its current placement, given the two minor but significant clues (Johnny having girlfriend problems at the time; the rest of the team being at Whisper Hill).

Thanks for the input; I do appreciate it.

[StrayLamb]

Here's what Olshevsky says: "This story must take place on Christmas Eve of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college, which occurs between ASM 94 & 95. The next possible Christmas Eve, of Peter's junior year, is too close to the time of New Year's Eve in FF 133, when Thundra challenges the Thing after joining the Frightful Four. The Frightful Four at the time of this story do not have a fourth member, as seen in the next issue... The Human Torch's appearance here takes place during the long break between FF 104& 105. The girl problems to which Johnny Storm alludes refer to the progressive deterioration of Crystal's health. Johnny's girlfriend suffers a collapse in FF 105 that leads to their permanent separation"

Olshevsky notes that when this story occurs, Gwen Stacy is in London following the death of her father, and puts Peter's thoughts of dating her at the end of the story down to topical references.

He says, "She is on Peter's mind because he misses her very much, but he does not have the time to travel to London until his Christmas vacation, after Christmas (in ASM 95)," but that's not right. In ASM 95, Pete's sent to London on a photo assignment, and the MCP places ASM 95-99 prior to M/TU 1.

There are no specific seasonal references that i can see preventing ASM 100-105 and FF 105-118 from taking place prior to Christmas Eve. The FF issues are tied to A 89-91 IH2 141-145, and Hulk says it's February, but what does he know? So moving M/TU 1 would not necessarily upset the Christmas Eve references. Also, there's a break between ASM 105 (9:4) & ASM 105 (9:5), so if you place M/TU 1 into that gap for Spider-Man, that solves the problem of the first part of ASM 105 following on directly from ASM 104.

[intp]

Thanks for the feedback, StrayLamb. I had kind of forgotten about this thread when I got preoccupied with other things.

Not sure if the seasonal aspect is such an important clue to placement; Olshevsky's indices were generally terrific (really got me interested in Marvel chronology in the first place) but the rationale for this placement seems a little thin to me, as I only vaguely recalled, as I still haven't been able to get myself to dig up my old Index issues, which are in one of about 15+ long boxes that I currently have in storage.

[Russ Chappell]

I, too, am reluctant to let calendar placement decide the order of stories, intp, especially if it requires writing off plot elements as "topical references." That goes against my grain.

In this case, though, the brutal truth is that Olshevsky wrote those comments under the auspices of the Official Marvel Index. We therefore take it as, "this is Marvel's stance, and unless they're wrong, they must be right." The Indices are written by humans, so they can make mistakes, but we should subordinate our personal preferences to Marvel's imprimatur.

[StrayLamb]

I do agree that M/TU 1 should be placed after FF 116 for Johnny Storm. The MCP has already gone against the Official Index placement for Spider-Man, placing M/TU 1 after ASM 99, and it's no great stretch to move it one notch further down for Spidey. Surely the story elements have to outweigh the Christmas Eve setting, even if an Index says it's so. We have no trouble dismissing such references by writers/artists. As everyone knows, i try to keep Christmas references intact wherever possible, but this is one case where it really doesn't work.

I would suggest the following updates:

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
---
FF 104
X:HY 22
M/TU 1 * MOVE FROM HERE
FF 105
FF 106
FF 107
FF 108
FF 109
FF 110
FF 111
FF 112
FF 113
FF 114
FF 115
FF 116
M/TU 1 * MOVE TO HERE
M/TU 2
---

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
---
ASM 98
ASM 99
M/TU 1 * MOVE FROM HERE
FF 111
M/TU 1 * MOVE TO HERE
M/TU 2
---

[Russ Chappell]

Nick,

Give it a couple of weeks for someone to respond. If no one raises an objection, then make the change.

[StrayLamb]

I see you've put a check against this topic Michel, but i've been going thru all of the issues around this period, and have come up with another idea. What if we split FF 111 between panels 3 & 4 of page 13. Some time passes between those panels, during which time Sue and Franklin have gone to Whisper Hill and back. If we place M/TU 1 between those panels for Torch, then Reed at least would have joined Sue and Franklin at Whisper Hill for Christmas, although Ben is still hiding out. This places the 1971 Christmas issue during Christmas of 1970, but it's out of place no matter what, and at least it keeps the christmas setting.

FF 105-111 (1 - 13:3) > M/TU 1 [Christmas Eve 1970] (also AA 5/2 [Christmas Eve 1970]) > IH2 139 [February 1971] > FF 111 (13:4 - 20)-116

This keeps Spidey's current listings intact. The only change would be for..

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
---
FF 104
X:HY 22
M/TU 1 * MOVE FROM HERE
FF 105
FF 106
FF 107
FF 108
FF 109
FF 110
FF 111 (1 - 13:3) * SPLIT
M/TU 1 * MOVE TO HERE
FF 111 (13:4 - 20) * SPLIT
FF 112
FF 113
FF 114
FF 115
FF 116
M/TU 1 * MOVE TO HERE
M/TU 2
---

What do you guys think?

[Edit: I should mention that i'm going to propose splitting FF 111 for another reason as well, as soon as i get some time, but that will be posted as a separate topic ]

[michel]

Be careful, pages 12 and 13 of FF 111 are half-pages, so I'm not sure where you want to put the break.
If it's just before the Daily Bugle scene, then it's between panels 13:1 and 13:2, but that would put M/TU 1 before FF 111 for Spider-Man.
If it's just after the Daily Bugle scene, then it's between panels 14:2 and 14:3.

[StrayLamb]

between panels 13:1 and 13:2, but that would put M/TU 1 before FF 111 for Spider-Man.

That's what i get for reading online, instead of pulling the issue out of its box. Between panels 13:1 and 13:2, and keeping M/TU 1 before FF 111 for Spider-Man, where it's currently listed.