Villains in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #9

[wolframbane]

http://www.imagebam.com/image/2988c21353744029

I am uncertain if this has been determined before or not. In Marvel Knights Spider-Man #9, page 15, there were several Golden Age villains in shadow. This was around 1945, the characters were likely wealthy, and probably C-list villains. Can we identify all of them?
1/
2/ Orchid
3/
4/ Asbestos Lady
5/
6/
7/ Isbisa

[StrayLamb]

I think 7/ is Isbisa (Simon Meke) in his original costume from All-Winners Squad 19.

[wolframbane]

Great call SL. #7 definitely looks like Isbisa.

#2 is probably the Orchid, with the hooded mask, cape, and gas tank. He is an obscure villain who once fought the obscure Blackstone the Magician.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix8/orchid_ga.htm

[wolframbane]

Found most of the info in the Marvel Appendix Master List. http://www.marvunapp.com/master/mastguid.htm
Also, the group was called the Organizers, per Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A To Z #7, under Miss America.

1/ Flaming Hate - Marvel Mystery Comics #53
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Flaming_Hate_(Earth-616)
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/fjfn.htm
2/ Orchid (Rufus Grendle) - Blackstone the Magician #2
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix8/orchid_ga.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/or.htm
3/ Viking (Ross Palmer) - Sub-Mariner Comics #24
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Ross_Palmer_(Earth-616)
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/viaviq.htm
4/ Asbestos Lady (Victoria Murdock) - Human Torch Comics #27
5/ Parrot - Marvel Mystery Comics #24
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Parrot_(Earth-616)
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/parlpaz.htm
6/ Doctor Crime (Edward Elmgren) - Captain America Comics #12
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Edward_E ... Earth-616)
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/doadoctord.htm
7/ Cobra - Captain America Comics #21
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/coacol.htm

[ShadZ]

All of those make sense except #7. That Cobra (who has a Marvel database page at https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Albri_Le ... Earth-616) ) was a wartime character who worked for the Nazis (and was himself apparently South Asian). Doesn't really fit the pattern of the rest who were (mostly) post-war (all) American criminals. Still, it's possible that the Organizers recruited Cobra after the war and his release/escape from prison...

[StrayLamb]

I still think that 7 is Isbisa, who was specifically obsessed with Miss America and the Whizzer, as shown in All-Winners Comics 19 & Giant-Size Avengers 1. This also fits well with the other members of the Organizers.

That Cobra from Captain America Comics 21 looks completely different..

[Leoparis]

I agree that number seven is Isbisa.

I doubt that number one is Flaming Hate. I can't see any fireman costume here. What are those oval shapes? The right one is probably an epaulette. But the one on his back?

On the other hand number two could be. I think Flaming Hate matches more the profile of a costumed super-villain paid to keep superheroes busy than the Orchid.

There has been some misreading. The group is not called the Organizers. (It is not called anything as it isn't a formal group but a meeting.) "Organizers" (as the name implies) refers to the rich men arranging the fights and funding the super-villains, not to the super-villains themselves. The organizers were heading "the companies putting governments in office." The super-villains were "on an ex-GI salary." Osborn is described as the one organizer who crossed the line and became a super-villain himself. (We also have an organizer, Abner Jonas, in DD 10-11.)

Looking at the composition of the picture, I think number one might be the organizer funding the super-villains shown around the table. He's clearly commanding the attention of the group. I think "Red Skull" when I see this silhouette. The first Red Skull, George Maxon, was an industrialist so it fits the narrative. Maxon was patterned on Henry Ford (1863-1947), a notorious antisemite and one of the most powerful men in America. Even the later Nazi Red Skull could fit the profile of an organizer.

Maxon apparently died in Captain America Comics 1 but returned in CAC 3. The Maxon in Tales of Suspense 65 escaped and was an imposter. Reconciling both versions seems tricky.

Some of the identified villains only appeared postwar. The first order of business is to find a date when this grouping could take place. For some of them, this MKSM 9-FB appearance predates their Timely appearance.

1/ Red Skull (Maxon?) Captain America Comics #1 (Mar 1941), dies in Captain America Comics #3 (May 1941)

2/ Orchid (Rufus Grendle) - Blackstone the Magician #2 (May 1948)
or Flaming Hate - Marvel Mystery Comics #53 (Mar 1944)

3/ Viking (Ross Palmer) - Sub-Mariner Comics #24 (Jan 1948)

4/ Asbestos Lady (Victoria Murdock) - Human Torch Comics #27 (June 1947), earlier appearance in fb in Invaders 22 (1940)

5/ Parrot - Marvel Mystery Comics #24 (Oct 1941), dies in Marvel Mystery Comics #26 (Dec 1941)

6/ Doctor Crime (Edward Elmgren) - Captain America Comics #12 (Mar 1942), dies in All Winners Comics #7 (Dec 1942)

7/ Isbisa - All Winners Comics #19 (Oct 1946)

Given the early deaths of 5 and 6, the meeting should be an early one, circa Captain America Comics 1.
MKSM 9 makes it sound the return of costumed heroes from the war prompts the Organizers to distract them with private antagonists but given the early appearance of 4, 5 and 6, this program started earlier: 1939-40 flurry of new costumed heroes, planned reaction by businessmen to create antagonists to distract heroes from white-collar crime, many costumed heroes either get killed (Marvel Project), drafted (All Winners Squad) or sent to Europe (Invaders, The Twelve) so that the Organizers program gets suspended when the US joins the war. It gets revived post 1945 as told in MKSM 9 when the number of heroes on US soil increases in the wake of VE and VJ day.

ASBESTOS LADY/VICTORIA MURDOCK
INV 22-FB
M/KSM 9-FB
{CAC 63/3}
[HTC 27] (change from 28)

DOCTOR CRIME/DR. EDWARD ELMGREN
M/KSM 9-FB
{CAC 12}
[ALLWC 7]

FLAMING HATE
M/KSM 9-FB
{M/MC 53/4}

ISBISA/DR. SANDERSON
M/KSM 9-FB
{ALLWC 19-FB}
ALLWC 19

PARROT
M/KSM 9-FB
{M/MC 24}
M/MC 26

RED SKULL II/GEORGE MAXON
CAC 1/4
CAC 3-FB
M/KSM 9-FB
CAC 3

VIKING/ROSS PALMER
M/KSM 9-FB
{SUBC 24}

[Nausiated]

With regards to Flaming Hate, the reason he has been affiliated with the Organizers was cited in the Miss America profile in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z Vol. 7. The organization funding them is also specifically called the Organizers there, probably for lack of a better name.

I don't think that Maxon here. The Red Skull profile in OHOTMU A-Z vol.9 confirms that Maxon died in Captain America Comics #3. The story in Tales of Suspense #65 is a retelling of the story from Captain America Comics #1. The reason events are different are chalked up to the content guidelines set out by the Comics Code Authority when that story was published since it was heavily against on panel deaths of the sort that were depicted in the original story. I think the catch all regarding golden age stories and discrepancies when they are retold can be chalked up to the plot device they introduced in Young Allies 80th Anniversary Special #1. In that story it was revealed that all Timely era comics are actually fictional stories published based on real life events. This was mostly used to get around the problematic issues with the old Young Allies comics (ie: Whitewash Jones) but Marvel has since applied it to most other instances to explain discrepancies from these 80 year old stories and any modern retellings. The plot device was also used in Marvel Boy: The Uranian to address discrepancies from the old Marvel Boy/Astonishing stories and more current ones involving the character by saying those old stories were comic book adaptations of real events.

That said, the idea that this is the Red Skull is not impossible, just not the Maxon one. There was the Red Skull who appears in Captain America Comics #61. The Captain America Index suggests that this might also be Maxon, contradicting the handbooks. But the key word there is *might*, it also doesn't discount that this is yet another impostor. The index for Captain America's Weird Tales #74 muddies this further by saying the vengeful spirit of the Red Skull in that story could be Maxon, the Skull from CAC 61, or even Johann Schmidt reaching out somehow while in suspended animation.

The way I look at it is that most sources state that Maxon died in Captain America Comics #3. The fact that it is referenced more often than not should give it more weight. Secondly, I think the Red Skull in Captain America Comics #61 is a different guy and the same one that appears as a spirit in Captain America's Weird Tales #74. The main reason for this argument is that in both cases the guy in the Captain America costume is Jeff Mace (per What If? #4). If the ghost was Maxon or (somehow?) Schmidt, it doesn't make sense that they would target Jeff Mace. The Skull's motivation in Weird Tales is to avenge his death at the hands of Captain America. If we're talking Steve Rogers, he's on ice at the time (per Avengers #4).

There are just too many mental gymnastics that need to be done to justify the guy from CAC 61 as being Maxon, or justifying Maxon or Schmidt as the vengeful spirit in Weird Tales. It makes for cleaner continuity if that Red Skull is another impostor who had an axe to grind with Jeff Mace and haunted him from beyond the grave after his death. Since he first appeared in 1947, it would fit the timeline of the Organizers plot.

[Leoparis]

Thanks for your detailed comments.

I never use handbooks as sources for obvious reasons: they color my view of the material.

It's totally accurate to call the funders of the super-villains "Organizers." What is not accurate is calling this grouping of super-villains "Organizers."

You will note that in my suggested chronology for Red Skull I place this meeting before Maxon's death in CAC 3. The deaths of Parrot and Doctor Crime in 1941 and 1942 prevent me from placing the flashback in 1947. In that regard I acknowledge all these deaths.

Obviously the Organizers would have continued funding super-villains without Maxon. The death of one member does not put a stop to their activity. The Red Skull identity is up for grabs. It's been used by Nazis, communists and capitalists.

I've been going through all Red Skull appearances for a future post. The Red Skull in CAC 61 is indeed acting like an Organizer, as he's freeing inmates from prison.

I agree it is preferable to acknowledge Maxon's death in CAC 3. Note however that Henry Ford, the inspiration for the original Red Skull from CAC 1, died in the year 1947 so the Captain America index has some ground for its suggestion that this could be Maxon.

Now, on the question of motivation, Schmidt killed Roscoe Simons, a replacement Captain America, in CA 183. His hate for Captain America extends to the symbol; that has always been evident. Putting a stop to the legacy of Steve Rogers by targeting his replacements would fit Schmidt's persona (and indeed Captain America retires after CAC 74).

I wonder if you saw my notes for the golden age Black Widow story in Marvel 3/5 and what you think of it. The elements are there to think that Schmidt's spirit went to hell during his suspended animation.

For the longest time Marvel writers (and Handbook writers) frowned on deaths from which characters came back ("that was not a real death") but such barriers have been shattered by Greg Pak, Jonathan Hickman and Al Ewing, among others. Recently the Dr. Strange series and the Genis Captain Mar-Vell series have acknowledged the frequency with which people get out of Death's realm or out of hell.

If at least we can agree on the lineup (Asbestos Lady, Dr. Crime, Flaming Hate, Isbisa, Parrot, Viking) and the time of the meeting (1941), we can fix M/KSM 9 now and argue about the Red Skulls in CAC 61 and 74 later.