Sentry / Spider-Man

[Leoparis]

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN # 7
FEATURE CHARACTER: Spider-Man (next in FNSM # 5, '06 (The Vulture is in prison from ASM # 2 to ASM # 7 and Peter is in Senior high and wearing glasses in FNSM # 5 (Flash also appears) so they must appear there before ASM # 8. Since we don't see the Vulture taken back to prison at the end of ASM # 7 he probably manages to get free from Spidey's webbing and then fight him again in FNSM # 5), IM: IA # 2, '98 …)
SUPPORTING CHARACTERS: J. Jonah Jameson, May Parker (both chr next in UTOS # 3, '95, next in ASM # 9, '64), Betty Brant (all three chr next in UTOS # 3, '95, next in ASM # 9, '64), Flash Thompson (chr next in S/SM # 1, '01 fb) (Flash is given an appearance in this fb and Peter isn't even though he is in the same scene, not that it matters in this case. I'm guessing the reasoning to place this fb here was that Peter's glasses break in ASM # 8 and they look intact in this fb, although he is not wearing them. Well, the placement is wrong: The Sentry tells Spider-Man that the Void has been working with the Kingpin and Spidey knows the Kingpin better than most; by the time of ASM # 7-8 Spider-Man hasn't even met the Kingpin yet. The flashbacks in S/SM # 1 happen at two or three different instances in time; the first with Doc Ock fighting Spidey while being followed by the Sentry and probably the following day, where Flash appears; the second instance "months" later with the Sentry showing up at Peter's house, we see the unbroken glasses here, to recruit Spidey's help against the Void and the Kingpin and the following dawn with Peter being the first to photograph the Sentry; and probably a third segment the following days or weeks with Robert Reynolds revealed as the Sentry with Peter's picture and Peter attending the Pulitzer's. So, with that in mind we'll leave placement of these flashbacks for when we get to later issues and find more appropriate places for them given the clues at hand) ...

I'm new to the Sentry so forgive me if I raise old questions. I did survey past posts about Sentry (but not the archives).
Jenkins seems to have a confused sense of Spidey's chronology. Parker is seen with his vest from the Ditko days and is the butt of Flash's remarks. On page 14, he knows Gwen but not MJ, which would place the flashback between ASM 27 and 41, except it says Spider-Man has already fought the Kingpin (ASM 50). By then Flash has left for the army (ASM 47). Peter is living with his aunt rather than with Harry (since ASM 46).

Here is my attempt to analyse it:
Pages 1-3, 8:1-3, 16, 22 present

pages 4-7 Spidey first meets Sentry, who calls him, "Peter." The foreboding rooftop imagery and the dark omens page 14 seem to point at ASM 89-90, so this could possibly happen on page 6 of ASM 89. The narration reads as if it's the point when darkness enters Spidey's life (death of Capt. Stacy, Harry on drugs, death of Gwen). But see notes for pages 9:3 - 15.

pages 8:4 - 9:2 "when you were just a kid... you used to idolize him" Given the wording, this could occur before pages 4-7. Between ASM 7 & 8 if you want but note he has already stopped wearing glasses in those pages...

pages 9:3 - 15 recruited by Sentry vs Void + Kingpin, Kingpin necessitating a break from previous panels, the break could be between 9:4 and 9:5 if you disconnect the caption in 9:3 from the picture. Problem: Peter is living at his aunt's home where "for months he'd flinch every time the doorbell rang." The 4-7 flashback would need to be much earlier, before Peter shares an apartment in ASM 46, maybe between ASM 18 & 29.

pages 17-20 (Sentry#200) goes public
21:2 attending the Pulitzers
21:3 - 21:5 Hulk, Void. Spidey thinks, "trying to get back to your other job... juggling all the attention you were getting with the business of bringing in the bad guys" What's odd is that there is no mention of his studies, plus when was Parker getting so much attention as a photographer that he had to juggle with his superhero life? Did Jenkins mean this part to take place after he dropped his studies? This reads like an alternate history.

[Michael]

Somebody had argued that the original Sentry stories are filled with entirely deliberate discontinuities:
https://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb ... f=2&t=4957

The thing about the original Sentry mini is that the series is filled with *entirely deliberate* discontinuities. Reed and the Avengers (including Hank) being shown in their early 60s costumes at the "Sentry must die" meeting is one of these.

The fake "Death of the Sentry" cover uses the late-80s/early-90s trade

[Leoparis]

I had read that post and I failed to see how that solved anything. Besides, it's not the Sentry's continuity I'm interested in but rather the characters he intersects with. I started looking at the issue because of Doc Ock.

Even if the Sentry has "discontinuity powers," a type of reality-altering powers where the Hulk reverts to the Savage Hulk and super-heroes revert to their Silver Age costumes and personae in his presence, how does that power work on Flash and Peter when he is not there? Or did he never exist in the Silver Age and rewrote reality?

If it's the latter then we need to remove "past" guest appearances from the MCP (like we did, but maybe prematurely IMHO, for the Jeph Loeb color books).

If it's the former we need some rationale, i.e. the glasses are unbroken because Sentry repaired them, the months of flinching at the doorbell did not happen but Peter has that feeling because Sentry is there waiting for him in his room, the "so much attention from the Pulitzer-worthy photo" did not happen but again Peter has the feeling it did the next time he meets the Sentry. See? But we still need some workable placements for Flash and Octopus.

Plus, is it just Somebody's argument or is "entirely deliberate" a quote from somewhere? A story, a handbook, an interview?

[Big Al]

If I might add to the OP, the story also presents Peter clearly living with Aunt May in Forest Hills in spite of him having moved out by the time he'd met the Kingpin. This is to say nothing of the fact that Peter claims he idolized the Sentry and yet no story within the first 50 odd issues of Spider-Man, nor any stories set before Amazing Fantasy #15 or untold tales style stories, ever reference the Sentry. Those stories were obviously not presented as 'memories' of Spider-Man or stories told 'after the fact' as though from an in-universe archive. So Peter should have at least had a passing thought about the Sentry at some point before the one shot, especially since he was allegedly operating prior to the debut of the F4.

But I think it's important to bear in mind the original Sentry mini and one shots were never strictly speaking intended to be in-continuity.

[Leoparis]

Welcome. I'm honored that my post was your first call.

I did mention Peter living with his aunt in that original post. That is not so big a problem. Many university students return to their parents home for the holidays or even on some weekends. Flash not appearing as a soldier is a stronger problem. The scene in the room being "months later" also. That is why I aimed in my analysis to place the Flash scene during high school and to disconnect that scene from the Sentry-in-his-room scene.

All those tales and flashbacks of the Sentry ARE untold tales (unless they're false memories caused by his reality-altering powers). It may very well be that the Sentry has the power to make people forget about him when there is no reminder of him such as his presence or a photo.

Generally speaking, the fact that there was never any mention of the Sentry is expected when we are talking about chronology inserts (unless a writer creates a continuity insert to address an original discrepancy--like Roy Thomas did in What If? 4 about the lack of an All Winners Comics 20). An insert will be judged on its merits. It's hard to be perfect, even when one carefully surveys the contemporary issues, one may contradict a later issue. When Busiek invented Commanda as a female adversary in Untold Tales of Spider-Man he failed to take into account that Medusa was supposed to have been Spidey's first female opponent.

A way I try to circumvent the never-mentioned effect is linking a short continuity insert to an existing scene. There is a one-panel scene in ASM 587 of Spidey saving a cop from Octopus during a bank robbery. Rather than placing this between ASM 56 where Doc Ock is captured and ASM 88 where he's released, I'd rather fit it during a story, like during ASM 12 or ASM 89. Same for the Sentry/Spider-Man flashback.

You and Michael seem to advocate that we do not include those flashbacks in the chronology. I'm fine either way but they are currently in the chronology. How would you argue persuasively for their removal? How do you prove they "were never strictly-speaking intended to be in-continuity"? If there is a Sentry story which cast doubt on the flashbacks, which is it?

[Big Al]

Welcome. I'm honored that my post was your first call.

I did mention Peter living with his aunt in that original post. That is not so big a problem. Many university students return to their parents home for the holidays or even on some weekends. Flash not appearing as a soldier is a stronger problem. The scene in the room being "months later" also. That is why I aimed in my analysis to place the Flash scene during high school and to disconnect that scene from the Sentry-in-his-room scene.

All those tales and flashbacks of the Sentry ARE untold tales (unless they're false memories caused by his reality-altering powers). It may very well be that the Sentry has the power to make people forget about him when there is no reminder of him such as his presence or a photo.

Generally speaking, the fact that there was never any mention of the Sentry is expected when we are talking about chronology inserts (unless a writer creates a continuity insert to address an original discrepancy--like Roy Thomas did in What If? 4 about the lack of an All Winners Comics 20). An insert will be judged on its merits. It's hard to be perfect, even when one carefully surveys the contemporary issues, one may contradict a later issue. When Busiek invented Commanda as a female adversary in Untold Tales of Spider-Man he failed to take into account that Medusa was supposed to have been Spidey's first female opponent.

A way I try to circumvent the never-mentioned effect is linking a short continuity insert to an existing scene. There is a one-panel scene in ASM 587 of Spidey saving a cop from Octopus during a bank robbery. Rather than placing this between ASM 56 where Doc Ock is captured and ASM 88 where he's released, I'd rather fit it during a story, like during ASM 12 or ASM 89. Same for the Sentry/Spider-Man flashback.

You and Michael seem to advocate that we do not include those flashbacks in the chronology. I'm fine either way but they are currently in the chronology. How would you argue persuasively for their removal? How do you prove they "were never strictly-speaking intended to be in-continuity"? If there is a Sentry story which cast doubt on the flashbacks, which is it?

Whilst you are quite right that many students return home at that point in time Aunt May was living in Anna Watson's house, yet Peter had a room of his own clearly furnished and decorated with his belongings. When combined with the fact that we never even hinted that Peter ever slept over at May and Anna's abode during the 1960s I feel this supports the case that this one shot doesn't add up within canon.

Regarding Commanda and Medusa, Princess Python as part of the Circus of Crime actually predated Medusa so i guess the Medusa story writers forgot her.

If we are essentially creatively evaluating the Sentry one shot then honestly, I find it rather lacking as a Spider-Man story for various reasons. If Peter was getting royalty checks from a lot of merchandise, even for just a few months he'd be loaded, at least for a little while. The Sentry might've erased mmories of himself, but the 'spell' wouldn't affect Peter's bank account any more than it'd move the unicorn statue Reed had. If Peter (of all characters) randomly found out he had a lot of money randomly in the bank it'd be a big deal in his life, yet we had no mention of that and it beguiles belief that he never checked his account given how tightly he has had to manage his finances.

I'm not advocating we don't include them in the chronology. I happened to have read this one shot recently and on my first time on these boards happened across a thread about it and just wanted to add in my two-cents. That's all. i was simply adding to the ways in which the story was inconsistent with the then established canon.

For what it's worth the author of the one shot and the Sentry mini-series (Paul Jenkins) briefly referenced the one shot in PPSM 31.

[Leoparis]

OK. So that story lies in a state of uncertainty like a Schrödinger cat. Let's open the box then, and thoroughly look at it to see if it's dead or alive.

Where in PPSM 31 does Jenkins reference the one-shot? (page and panel)

You're right that May went to live with Anna when she came back from Florida. Whatever happened to the Parkers' home? I remember it was put for rent and the Burglar renting it in ASM 170. Did we ever see it between ASM 46 and 170? Could Peter have used it at a time there was no tenant?

For the royalty checks, I originally thought some of these "you's" referred to the Sentry, Bob Reynolds. Parker rolling in cash was indeed so implausible that I had unwittingly reinterpreted the narrative this way. Did anybody else do that?

And since I have no dog in this race, do not hesitate forwarding any other discrepancy that would lead us to reject those flashbacks as reality- or mind-manipulation. I'll put a proposal, whoever is interested will say his piece and Russ will make the call.

Note: Parker receives a Pulitzer in ASM 246. It's an imaginary story that originally came out when Jenkins was eighteen. The Sentry character seems loosely inspired by Comet Man, from a 1986-87 limited series, a made-up pre-Marvel married hero who met the Hulk and Reed Richards. Jenkins mentioned the Sentry in Civil War: Front Line #8. The Comet Man covers were drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz, who was also the artist on Sentry/Hulk.

[DotStinks]

The current placement of SENTRY/SM-FB between ASM 80 & 81 is also bothersome for Aunt May, who is in Florida from ASM 72-81. She is ill from ASM 81-86, and is back to normal by A 82 (Peter is visiting May in that issue), but Flash has already returned to Vietnam by that point, as shown in ASM 83.

I agree with Leoparis that ASM 587-FB should be tied to a pre-existing event, otherwise two different Doc Ock fights happen between ASM 56 & 88 (this is where I've placed the Negative Exposure series). ASM 3 or 12 maybe? Would have to check my copy of those issues.

If SENTRY/SM-FB is gonna be kept, I also think the segment with Ock, Flash, and May should be disconnected, so Peter & May actually live in Queens and Flash fits better. Doc Ock's appearances in the Ditko era have some sort of continuity between them: the only real gap I can think of is between ASM 12 & ASM@ 1, where PPSSM 310-FB is currently placed.

Side note: having the entirety of the SENTRY/SM flashback between ASM 80 & 81 has Peter doing nothing for "months." Granted the suggestion above has the illusion of "months" passing between early 1964 and late 1969, but whatever.

PARKER, MAY REILLY
...
ASM 68 in bed, living with Aunt Anna
ASM 72 goes to Florida
ASM 76 in Florida
SENTRY/SM-FB "in Queens"
ASM 81 returns from Florida
ASM 82 ill
ASM 86 in bed, living with Aunt Anna
A 82 back to normal
...

THOMPSON, CPL. EUGENE "FLASH"
...
ASM 47 (1 - 10:1)
SENSM@ 1 (10:2)-FB-FB
ASM 47 (10:2 - 11:1)
SENSM@ 1 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB-FB
ASM 47 (11:2 - 20)
ASM 50-BTS
ASM 52
ASM 53
V2 22 (17:4 - 17:6)-FB-FB
ASM 63-BTS sending a letter from Vietnam
ASM 72 back home
ASM 78 in NYC
ASM 80 in NYC
SENTRY/SM-FB "attending classes"
ASM 82 in NYC
X&SM 1 "shipped in two days"
SM/HT 2
ASM 83 leaves
...

[Leoparis]

I gather the reason why it was placed where it currently lies is because of Flash Thompson but the Thompson here is a student not a soldier. The key is indeed the months occurring in the middle of the flashback, which have been wrongfully ignored. The part with Flash and May should be earlier (probably before Sentry's original downfall) and the second part shortly prior to Captain Stacy's foreshadowed death. But there are still discrepancies such as Sentry mentioning his wife (could be a manner of speaking) and Peter in his old Queens bedroom (impossible to fix).

The reason I have not progressed much is that I wanted to look at Sentry, Octopus and Spidey to figure everything.

[Leoparis]

Three years later... after poring over Sentry's, Flash Thompson's, Kingpin's, Galactus's and Octopus's chronologies.

From Ock's costume (1st in ASM 54), the maskless Sentry in his later costume, the reference to Galactus and the foreshadowing of Captain Stacy's death, it is clear that the story was meant to take place shortly before Capt. Stacy's death at the end of ASM 89. However the appearance of Flash Thompson as a student and Peter's room in the Parkers home contradict this. (At this time Thompson is in the army, May lives with Anna Watson and her home is for rent, Parker shares a flat with Harry Osborn.) The scenes with Flash and May need to occur before the Sentry/Octopus scenes.

Breakdown of scenes
Pages (4 - 7)-FB Spidey, Octopus in Romita costume, Sentry in later, maskless costume
(8:4 - 9:4)-FB-FB Flash & students discussing Sentry
(9:5)-FB-FB months go by
(9:6 - 15)-FB Sentry in Peter's room, fight vs Void & Kingpin

A correct visual progression would be to have (8:4 - 9:4)-FB-FB first [Flash & Peter in school], then (4 - 7)-FB [foretelling of Capt. Stacy's death in ASM 89] and (9:6 - 15)-FB [Sentry showing in Peter's pad]. But in (8:4 - 9:4), Peter is worried that Sentry knows his identity. It requires a previous encounter where Sentry shows he knows Spidey's identity. We know there was a previous encounter and their secret identities were an issue, cf. Sentry 1 (8:2) "I must alert Spider-Man. Little does he suspect Robby Reynolds and the Sentry are one and the same." We could separate (7:2 - 7:5) [Sentry using Peter's name] from the previous pages but that does not solve Sentry's later, maskless costume in these panels.

Placing (8:4 - 9:4) as a flashback within a flashback is justified by the script, "When you were just a kid, the Sentry took out the Menace Master just by staring at him! This guy was everything. You used to idolize him--"

None of the students match Flash's usual group (Liz, Tiny, Jason, Sally).

The room in (9:6) matches the look of Peter's apartment in ASM 58 page 11 with the position of bookshelves on the proper side of the window.

Kingpin has a tight continuity between ASM 86 & CA 146-147 but his appearance in SENTRY/SM matches the catatonic state he is in after ASM 86, which again reinforces the notion that the story was written to take place shortly before the death of Capt. Stacy.

Spidey & Sentry first meeting (cf. SENTRY 1 (8:2)-FB) > SENTRY/SM (8:4 - 9:4)-FB-FB circa ASM 12 (I need months before Sentry's 1965 downfall and a time when Octopus is at large) > SENTRY/SM (9:5)-FB-FB Peter worries for months > (circa ASM 21) Sentry's downfall, the world forgets about him > Sentry revival behind the scenes > SENTRY/FF-FB (ca FF 72) Sentry in previous, headmask costume > FF 74-77 Galactus threatens Earth = "once fought Galactus to a standstill" (page 8 of SENTRY/SM), this can occur on Earth behind the scenes between pages 7 & 18 of FF 77 while the scenes are split between deep space and the microverse > SENTRY/SM (4 - 7)-FB Sentry in new maskless costume (between ASM 80 & 81 if you wish, although I favor page 6 of ASM 89 after Ock fled from prison and Spidey is looking for him) > SENTRY/SM (9:6 - 15)-FB Sentry visits Peter in his Manhattan pad (not his Forest Hills room since I separate 9:5 from 9:6) and they fight Void & Kingpin

(The reason I fold Sentry vs Galactus within a known appearance of Galactus is because the Shi'ar Science Officer in X 104 reports, "This planet has faced Galactus four times in its immediate planetary history--and beaten him back!" and we already have four instances: FF 48-50, 74-77, 121-123 and T 225.)

Between pages 6 & 7 of ASM 89, Octopus is at large and Spidey is looking for him. With Octopus in the right costume and fleeing both times in ASM 587-FB and SENTRY/SM-FB, this is an ideal spot.

If you want to ignore Ock & Sentry's costumes, I provide an alternate proposal (hidden).

Suggested corrections:
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/DR. OTTO OCTAVIUS
[[[CLICK & DRAG: alternate
ASM 11
UTSM 10-BTS
**ASM 587-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM-FB move here
ASM 12
...]]]
ASM 56
**ASM 587-FB move from here
**SENTRY/SM-FB move from here
ASM 88
**ASM 89 (1 - 6) break here
**ASM 587-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM-FB move here
**ASM 89 (7 - 20) break here

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK
ASM 70
**SENTRY/SM-FB move from here
ASM 83
ASM 84
ASM 85
**SENTRY/SM-FB move here
CA 147-FB

PARKER, MAY REILLY
UTSM 10
**SENTRY/SM (8:4 - 9:4)-FB-FB move here
ASM 12
...
ASM 76
**SENTRY/SM-FB move from here
ASM 81

SENTRY/ROBERT "BOB" REYNOLDS
[[[CLICK & DRAG: alternate
NA 9 (7 - 9)-FB
**SENTRY/SM (4 - 7)-FB add line
SENTRY 1 (9:2 - 9:5)-FB]]]
...
SENTRY2 2 (13:3)
**SENTRY/SM (4 - 13:2)-FB delete and break as below:
**SENTRY/SM (4 - 7)-FB add line
**SENTRY/SM (9:6 - 13:2)-FB add line
SENTRY 3 (18:4)-FB

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
ASM 12 (1 - 2)
[[[CLICK & DRAG: alternate
**ASM 587 (9:5)-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM (4 - 7)-FB move here]]]
**SENTRY/SM (8:4 - 9:4)-FB-FB move here
UTSM 10
...
UTSM '97
**SENTRY/SM (9:5)-FB-FB add here
A 11
...
A:EMH2 6 (15 - 22)
**ASM 587 (9:5)-FB remove from here
SM/DP 7
...
ASM 80
**SENTRY/SM (4 - 13:2)-FB move from here
**SENTRY 3 (18:4)-FB move from here
**SENTRY/SM (13:5 - 15:6)-FB move from here
**SENTRY/SM (17 - 19:3)-FB move from here
**SENTRY 3 (17:5)-FB move from here
**SENTRY/SM (20:1 - 20:2)-FB move from here
X 65-BTS | cf X 138
....
**ASM 89 (1 - 6) break here
**ASM 587 (9:5)-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM (4 - 7)-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM (9:6 - 13:2)-FB move here
**SENTRY 3 (18:4)-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM (13:5 - 15)-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM (17 - 19:3)-FB move here
**SENTRY 3 (17:5)-FB move here
**SENTRY/SM (20:1 - 20:2)-FB move here
**ASM 89 (7 - 20) break here

THOMPSON, CPL. EUGENE "FLASH"
UTSM 10
**SENTRY/SM-FB-FB move here
ASM 12
...
ASM 80
**SENTRY/SM-FB move from here
ASM 82