Chronology: Engagement of Reed and Sue to Defeat of Galactus

[RobinHoodMtl]

Engagement of Reed and Sue to Defeat of Galactus:
...
Fantastic Four 40-43
X-Men 18 (9:4 - 10:2)-FB
Shadows & Light 1/3-FB
Fantastic Four 45 (5)-FB
Inhumans: The Untold Saga 1 (29:3 - 30)
Tales of Suspense 69 (1 - 4:4)
...
Fantastic Four 44
Fantastic Four 45 (1 - 4) ~ Marvels 3 (9:4)
Tales to Astonish 75/2 (7:1 - 7:5)
Marvels 3 (10:1)
...
Avengers 30 (1 - 2:4)
Fantastic Four 45 (6 - 8)
Winter Soldier: Bitter March 1-5
Captain America White 0-5
...

Any reason why Fantastic Four 45 (5) (Sandman and the Trapster's attempt to break out of jail) is listed as a flashback? The narrative in the book does not seem to imply it. And page 6 begins with "Meanwhile,..." which strongly suggests that page 5 occurs at about the same time.

[StrayLamb]

Any reason why Fantastic Four 45 (5) (Sandman and the Trapster's attempt to break out of jail) is listed as a flashback? The narrative in the book does not seem to imply it. And page 6 begins with "Meanwhile,..." which strongly suggests that page 5 occurs at about the same time.

While not necessarily apparent when reading FF, there's quite a large break between FF 43, which takes place prior to the Summer Break, and FF 44, which takes place after the start of the next semester. The scenario in FF 45 (5) strongly implies that it takes place very soon after FF 43. The Wizard is still in the prison infirmary, while Sandman and Trapster are acting and talking like they have only recently been incarcerated, with Sandman still learning about his specially-designed cell. They're not really trying to bust out yet. Sandman's just frustrated at his incarceration. In fact, Trapster in no way attempts to bust out, and tries to settle Sandman down, telling him he'll think of a way out.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Any reason why Fantastic Four 45 (5) (Sandman and the Trapster's attempt to break out of jail) is listed as a flashback? The narrative in the book does not seem to imply it. And page 6 begins with "Meanwhile,..." which strongly suggests that page 5 occurs at about the same time.

While not necessarily apparent when reading FF, there's quite a large break between FF 43, which takes place prior to the Summer Break, and FF 44, which takes place after the start of the next semester. The scenario in FF 45 (5) strongly implies that it takes place very soon after FF 43. The Wizard is still in the prison infirmary, while Sandman and Trapster are acting and talking like they have only recently been incarcerated, with Sandman still learning about his specially-designed cell. They're not really trying to bust out yet. Sandman's just frustrated at his incarceration. In fact, Trapster in no way attempts to bust out, and tries to settle Sandman down, telling him he'll think of a way out.

You're right about the correction you made on the supposed attempt to break out. Your description is more accurate. And true, there is a long break between FF 43 and FF 45, but it is still possible that the Wizard has been in the infirmary for a longer period than you suggest. (I mean, the guy is obviously not an athlete! And he doesn't look like a particularly young chicken either.)

However, I do maintain that nothing in the text suggests that page 5 should be a flashback, especially when the "Meanwhile" on page 6, by definition, means it is supposed to happen at the same time, doesn't it? Usually, the writers makes it quite clear when it's a flashback, either by saying it is, or with the common use of wavy frames drawn around the boxes. So I really don't think one can assume they intended to make it a flashback when they wrote it and to my knowledge, there is no other source material to support that it occurs between FF 43 and 44. But of course, you don't have to agree.

[StrayLamb]

You're right about the correction you made on the supposed attempt to break out. Your description is more accurate. And true, there is a long break between FF 43 and FF 45, but it is still possible that the Wizard has been in the infirmary for a longer period than you suggest. (I mean, the guy is obviously not an athlete! And he doesn't look like a particularly young chicken either.)

However, I do maintain that nothing in the text suggests that page 5 should be a flashback, especially when the "Meanwhile" on page 6, by definition, means it is supposed to happen at the same time, doesn't it? Usually, the writers makes it quite clear when it's a flashback, either by saying it is, or with the common use of wavy frames drawn around the boxes. So I really don't think one can assume they intended to make it a flashback when they wrote it and to my knowledge, there is no other source material to support that it occurs between FF 43 and 44. But of course, you don't have to agree.

I understand what you're saying, but because of the gap between issues, i maintain that it works better placed very shortly after FF 43. Stan Lee obviously intended no such break when he was writing FF 45, hence he hasn't written it as a flashback, but a long break has since become apparent. You're welcome to ignore the placement of FF 45 (5), and draw a line thru it on your copy of the list, but i'm leaving where it is at the moment.

I'm sure i've made this disclaimer before, but just so everyone knows, these lists are in no way "official" and are provided in an attempt to offer the best possible placements of stories in relation to each other. In this case, that means extracting this single scene and placing it where i believe it's meant to go. I don't feel constrained to reject the scene being a flashback just because it wasn't written as one. We have the benefit of hindsight, unlike the writer at the time.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Engagement of Reed and Sue to Defeat of Galactus:
...
Marvels 3 (4:3 - 4:5)
Tales of Suspense 74-76
Avengers Spotlight 22/2 [History of the Swordsman]
... (many many stories)

Defeat of Galactus to Master Plan of the Mandarin
...
Thor 131 (3:3 - 20)
Amazing Spider-Man 36
Tales of Suspense 77
Tales of Suspense 78 (1 - 11)
Marvels 3 (42:3 - 43:4)
Tales of Suspense 78 (12)
...

Since ToS 77 picks up right after issue 76 where the Mandarin has thrown Stark's case into the castle moat , I don't understand why there are so many issues that separate those two right in the middle of their discussion. If the battle with Ultimo really needs to occur after the defeat of Galactus, then it would be more logical to split ToS 77 somewhere. Stark's abduction from Byrd's car takes place only ten seconds after they left Stark Industries, so no break there. Anything before and after that moment in this issue is relatively continuous. The only place where there is no specific duration is in issue 77 while Ultimo is attacking the Red Army. This could take quite some time since Iron Man comes back in full armor on page 10. So IMHO, best place to split the issue would be between pages 7 and 8, right after Stark has dove into the moat to search for his case. It could take hours to find it in murky waters, couldn't it? So listing could go as this:

Engagement of Reed and Sue to Defeat of Galactus:
...
Marvels 3 (4:3 - 4:5)
Tales of Suspense 74-76
Tales of Suspense 77 (1-7)
Avengers Spotlight 22/2 [History of the Swordsman]
... (many many stories)

Defeat of Galactus to Master Plan of the Mandarin
...
Thor 131 (3:3 - 20)
Amazing Spider-Man 36
Tales of Suspense 77 (8-12)
Tales of Suspense 78 (1 - 11)
Marvels 3 (42:3 - 43:4)
Tales of Suspense 78 (12)
...

It is not much of a big change, but it makes more sense to split this where there is a little time gap than where there is none at all.

Optionally, there is also the flashback of Ultimo''s final steps of creation that is obviously outside issue 77's range, so you might want to insert Tales of Suspense 77 (2:3-4:3)-FB somewhere before. I personally placed it between Tales of Suspense 73 (12) and Tales of Suspense 74.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Engagement of Reed and Sue to Defeat of Galactus:
...
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (3:3 - 7:2)
Marvels 3 (9:2)
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (7:3 - 8:3)
Marvels 3 (9:3)
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:4 - 9:3)
...

I don't get why bother to separate Marvels 3 (9:2) and (9:3). The narrative of 6:2 zooms into next panel as both explain that Spider-Man is also getting bad press, which occurs right after Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:3). I really don't see why there should be a split between panels ASM 34 7:2 and 7:3 to insert Marvels 3 (9:2) in which Spidey's bad press is already implied. I'd simplify this as follows:

Amazing Spider-Man 34 (3:3 - 8:3)
Marvels 3 (9:2-9:3)
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:4 - 9:3)

[Leoparis]

Indeed, that's odd. 9:2 is just New York skyline and features no character. Maybe some overzeal in including every panel of Marvels. There is scant reason to break the Kraven sequence on page 7 of ASM 34.

Kraven's listing only makes one break on page 8:
ASM 34 (3:3 - 8:3)
MARVELS 3
ASM 34 (8:4 - 20)

Jameson's listing:
ASM 34 (1 - 8:3)
MARVELS 3 (9)
ASM 34 (8:4 - 20)

It could be reduced to this:
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (3:3 - 8:3)
Marvels 3 (9:3)
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:4 - 9:3)

[RobinHoodMtl]

Indeed, that's odd. 9:2 is just New York skyline and features no character. Maybe some overzeal in including every panel of Marvels. There is scant reason to break the Kraven sequence on page 7 of ASM 34.

[...]
It could be reduced to this:
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (3:3 - 8:3)
Marvels 3 (9:3)
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:4 - 9:3)

But this leaves Marvels 3 (9:2) out of the list. Even if it features no character, the narrative already implies the attack on Jameson, kind of off-panel -- the skyline view is technique is often used in movies to change focus to another event. So I maintain that this panel should be combined with the next and listed as Marvels 3 (9:2-9:3).

[Clive_Reston]

Giant-Size Gwen Stacy 1 complicates things a little (but not a lot). It collects Gwen Stacy 1-2 with what would have been issues 3-5. The whole thing takes place over a couple of weeks (during Gwen’s campaign for class president).

At the beginning, there’s a news report that Reed Richards is going to give a talk at his alma mater (i.e. FF 35). Foswell has published his Bugle story about Lucky Lobo, but this needn’t be immediately after that; it sounds like Capt. Stacy has been following up on it to take Lobo’s whole gang down.

We see Nick Lewis talking to Norman Osborn (who can’t figure out how Lewis knows he’s the Goblin); Lewis refers to UTOS 25 in the past tense (as “when you tried to make me think you were Jonah Jameson”). The last chapter is simultaneous with ASM 27, and in fact puts Jean DeWolff and Yuri Watanabe on the scene at Lewis’s death…

We also get the X-Men (between issues 10 & 11 of their series, it looks like). And Robert LeClerc is implied to be That One Guy in JJJ’s club in ASM 26!

[Michael]

You have SM&FF2 1 placed after FF Annual 3. How is that possible? It explicitly takes place before Reed and Sue are married. Although that issue is notoriously difficult to place.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Here's a new version of the list for perusal, with latest changes/additions in BLUE.

Engagement of Reed and Sue to Defeat of Galactus:
...
Marvels 2 (25:1)
X-Men 10
Untold Tales of Spider-Man 25 (1 - 2)
...

There is a scene in TTA 97 displaying the X-Men fighting pterodactyls as they arrive in the Savage Land in X-Men 10. However the original scene did not establish that Ka-Zar and Zabu were observing them at that moment. In X-Men 10, both only show up on page 9 after the Swamp Men have captured Marvel Girl.

Though it is a minor detail, I would still make this change to the listing:
X-Men 10 (1 - 7:2)
Tales to Astonish 97 (5:3)-FB
X-Men 10 (7:3 - 21)

[StrayLamb]

Giant-Size Gwen Stacy 1 complicates things a little (but not a lot). It collects Gwen Stacy 1-2 with what would have been issues 3-5. The whole thing takes place over a couple of weeks (during Gwen’s campaign for class president).

At the beginning, there’s a news report that Reed Richards is going to give a talk at his alma mater (i.e. FF 35). Foswell has published his Bugle story about Lucky Lobo, but this needn’t be immediately after that; it sounds like Capt. Stacy has been following up on it to take Lobo’s whole gang down.

We see Nick Lewis talking to Norman Osborn (who can’t figure out how Lewis knows he’s the Goblin); Lewis refers to UTOS 25 in the past tense (as “when you tried to make me think you were Jonah Jameson”). The last chapter is simultaneous with ASM 27, and in fact puts Jean DeWolff and Yuri Watanabe on the scene at Lewis’s death…

We also get the X-Men (between issues 10 & 11 of their series, it looks like). And Robert LeClerc is implied to be That One Guy in JJJ’s club in ASM 26!

I've added in the Gwen Stacy issues, including a page/panel break-down for Gwen Stacy 5 & ASM 27. For simplicity, i've added them as if the series was originally published in five issues, as intended before COVID struck. It's simpler than the other options of using GS Gwen pages, or treating GS Gwen chapters as story numbers. I've moved X-Men 10 so that the X-Men appear between X-Men 9 & 10. I really enjoyed this series. Here's what i have..

Amazing Spider-Man 23
Gwen Stacy 1 (1 - 17)
Fantastic Four 36 (5:4 - 5:6)-FB
Fantastic Four 35
Strange Tales 130
Fantastic Four 36 (1 - 3) ~ Marvels 2 (23)
Fantastic Four 36 (5:1 - 5:3)
Fantastic Four 36 (6 - 8:1)
Marvels 2 (24)
Fantastic Four 36 (8:2 - 21)
Marvels 2 (25:1)
Invisible Woman 1 (1 - 10)
Untold Tales of Spider-Man 25
Gwen Stacy 1 (18 - 23)
Gwen Stacy 2
Gwen Stacy 3-4
Gwen Stacy 5 (1 - 3)
Amazing Spider-Man 24 (1 - 19:4)
Strange Tales 131 (1 - 4)
Spider-Man/Human Torch 1
Amazing Spider-Man 24 (19:5 - 20)
Amazing Spider-Man 25-26
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (1 - 12:1)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (12:2 - 12:4) ~ Gwen Stacy 5 (4:1 - 4:3)
Gwen Stacy 5 (4:4 - 5:1)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (12:5) ~ Gwen Stacy 5 (5:2:1 - 5:1:3)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (12:6)
Gwen Stacy 5 (5:2:4)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (12:7)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (13:1 - 13:3) ~ Gwen Stacy 5 (5:3 - 5:5)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (13:4 - 16)
Gwen Stacy 5 (6 - 9)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (17:1 - 17:5)
Gwen Stacy 5 (10 - 15)
Amazing Spider-Man 27 (17:6 - 20)
Gwen Stacy 5 (16 - 20)
X-Men 10

[StrayLamb]

Since ToS 77 picks up right after issue 76 where the Mandarin has thrown Stark's case into the castle moat , I don't understand why there are so many issues that separate those two right in the middle of their discussion. If the battle with Ultimo really needs to occur after the defeat of Galactus, then it would be more logical to split ToS 77 somewhere. Stark's abduction from Byrd's car takes place only ten seconds after they left Stark Industries, so no break there. Anything before and after that moment in this issue is relatively continuous. The only place where there is no specific duration is in issue 77 while Ultimo is attacking the Red Army. This could take quite some time since Iron Man comes back in full armor on page 10. So IMHO, best place to split the issue would be between pages 7 and 8, right after Stark has dove into the moat to search for his case. It could take hours to find it in murky waters, couldn't it?
...
It is not much of a big change, but it makes more sense to split this where there is a little time gap than where there is none at all.

I'm following the timeline given in Marvels 3, which places the Coming of Galactus while Tony Stark is a captive of the Mandarin. There's no good place to make a gap in Tales of Suspense. I'm not convinced that Tony can be swimming around in the moat the whole time during the Galactus incident. I placed the gap between TOS 76 & 77 as i can imagine time having passed between Mandarin tossing Tony's attache case into the moat, and the arrival of Ultimo. I probably should have placed the gap in TOS 76, between panels 3 & 4, prior to Mandarin activating Ultimo. It makes more sense to me that Mandarin threw Tony in a cell while he kept an eye on the Galactus incident.

Optionally, there is also the flashback of Ultimo''s final steps of creation that is obviously outside issue 77's range, so you might want to insert Tales of Suspense 77 (2:3-4:3)-FB somewhere before. I personally placed it between Tales of Suspense 73 (12) and Tales of Suspense 74.

Works for me.

[StrayLamb]

I don't get why bother to separate Marvels 3 (9:2) and (9:3). The narrative of 6:2 zooms into next panel as both explain that Spider-Man is also getting bad press, which occurs right after Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:3). I really don't see why there should be a split between panels ASM 34 7:2 and 7:3 to insert Marvels 3 (9:2) in which Spidey's bad press is already implied. I'd simplify this as follows:

Amazing Spider-Man 34 (3:3 - 8:3)
Marvels 3 (9:2-9:3)
Amazing Spider-Man 34 (8:4 - 9:3)

I tend to prioritize visuals over narrative. There's a break on page 7 of ASM 34, between panels 2 & 3, and again between panels 3 & 4. It seemed like a nice spot to place the framing shot of NYC, but i'll go with your suggestion.

Indeed, that's odd. 9:2 is just New York skyline and features no character. Maybe some overzeal in including every panel of Marvels. There is scant reason to break the Kraven sequence on page 7 of ASM 34.

Kraven's listing only makes one break on page 8:
ASM 34 (3:3 - 8:3)
MARVELS 3
ASM 34 (8:4 - 20)

Nevertheless, there are breaks on page 7, as mentioned above.

[StrayLamb]

You have SM&FF2 1 placed after FF Annual 3. How is that possible? It explicitly takes place before Reed and Sue are married. Although that issue is notoriously difficult to place.

This has been discussed at some length.

viewtopic.php?t=11468

http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... f=2&t=4977