Rise of the Black Panther

[StrayLamb]

following on from this topic.. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13733

Rise of the Black Panther #2 doesn't really seem to have any continuity problems that i could see. Namor's outfit is similar to, but not the same, as the one designed later by Reed Richards.

Issue #3 is another story.. It once again refers back to Captain America: Flags of Our Fathers, as T'Challa explains how it is that he has Cap's original shield hanging on the wall of the Wakanda Design Group building. Other problems include SHIELD Agent Sitwell shown speaking to Roberta, the FF's robot secretary, who wasn't deployed until FF #239. The Avengers are said to be off-planet, but assuming this is set immediately after FF 52-56, which appears to be the case, the current Avengers were Captain America, Goliath, Hawkeye and the Wasp, not exactly a space-faring Avengers team, but who knows.

And continuing the pronunciation theme that wormed into the previous thread, the following pronunciation guide is from Black Panther Annual 1 2018:

Dora Milaje (DOOR-ah meh-LAH-shay) [Although BP: World of Wakanda 1 has a different pronunciation - DOR-ah muh-LAH-jay]
Hatut Zeraze (ha-TOO sir-AH-say)

[Michael]

Roberta also appeared in a backup story in Spider Girl 1 (2010) that takes place before FF 25. We discussed a few possibilities, like Roberta being modelled after a human secretary the FF had in their early years.

[StrayLamb]

Rise of the Black Panther continues to bring in characters long before their Marvel debuts, pushing their first appearances further back..

Henry Peter Gyrich is in Washington
Jimmy Woo is already a SHIELD agent, before he even meets Nick Fury in ST 160
Senator Kelly speaks with Nick Fury
Carl Lucas has already been transferred to Seagate Prison

[gregorynbaker]

Rise of the Black Panther #6 ends with T'Challa joining the Avengers after his appearance in Tales of Suspense vol 1 #99 (c. Mar 1968). However, it also chronicles his first battle with Erik Killmonger (mid-70s) and the revealing of Wakanda to the world (Black Panther vol 1 14 (c. Mar 1979). Is this a "greatest hits" of the early years of Black Panther with extra scenes with Ramonda and Shuri told out of order or is it just not 616 canon?

[Col_Fury]

Unfortunately, I think it's non-616.

[StrayLamb]

On the bright side, we are learning how to speak Wakandan.

[StrayLamb]

Rise of the Black Panther #3 is another story.. It once again refers back to Captain America: Flags of Our Fathers, as T'Challa explains how it is that he has Cap's original shield hanging on the wall of the Wakanda Design Group building.

I may have been premature in attributing this to Flags of Our Fathers. In BP3 30 (May 2001) flashback, Cap visits Wakanda, apparently for the first time. A scout having returned from the area with a small sample of Vibranium, Cap and some troops have been sent to investigate, and he encounters the Black Panther, T'Chaka. This is a different story to Flags of Our Fathers, which has been deemed non-canon, but this flashback is currently deemed to be canon. It does explain Cap's triangular shield (did he have more than one?) on T'Challa's wall in Rise of the Black Panther. T'Chaka being the Black Panther during WW2 is problematic, but the MCP has this appearance attributed to BLACK PANTHER V/AZZARI/CHANDA, so that's been taken care of. Black Panther's comment that Ribbentrop is plowing south thru Benelux would place this during the summer of 1940.

[Col_Fury]

Which comic references Ribbentrop plowing south through Benelux?

Plz & Thnx!

[StrayLamb]

That's in Black Panther 30 (May 2001)

[Col_Fury]

Rats.

Steve didn't become active as Cap until March of '41 (established and reinforced many times over). But hey, characters are more important than dates and I've ignored dates a whole bunch of times in the past (and in the !FUTURE! I'm sure).

Thanks!

[StrayLamb]

I have a theory that WW2 didn't progress in the Marvel U in exactly the same way that it did in history. Likewise the Old West. But could it be possible that Cap was secretly operative for some months before his public debut?

Also the cover says Wakanda 1941.

[Col_Fury]

Well, yeah. There was no Captain America in the real world. However, MASSIVE amounts of stories mirror real-world history with the caveat that Captain America (and other heroes) were around in MU history.

As for Steve... CA 255 very specifically lays out the history. Check it out if you haven't had the chance!

[StrayLamb]

No Cap in the real world..!? Next you'll be telling me there's no Santa.

I shouldn't read thru things so quickly. Earlier in the narrative the date is given as early 1941. Black Panther may not have been as up-to-date on his current events as he made out, simply citing what he believed to be the most current German movements.

[Nausiated]

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd chime in about something that wasn't touched on in the original thread and some thoughts I had on the issue.

Marvel published a family tree for the Wakandan royal family back in February of 2018 that lists Azzuri as the father of T'Chaka. There are some wider implications of the royal family that aren't really touched on in this thread. Chanda is not listed on that family tree, which I think supports the idea that Chanda and Azzuri could be the same character identified by different names.

It's not an outlandish idea. How many times has a writer given the same character two different first names only for a Handbook to clarify by stating that one name is their first name and the other is their middle name (Robert Bruce Banner being the most famous example of this)

As for how you can fit Flags of Our Fathers to Earth-616, I think there is a plausible work around. For me, the only real sticking issue here is the appearances of the Howling Commandos, Warrior Woman, and Master Man.

The presumption here is that the Howling Commandos first formed post Pearl Harbor in 1942. However, there are countless stories that show Nick Fury operating covertly for the American military before the US officially entered the war as well as a number of conflicting stories that show Fury going through basic training. We also already established that Fury met Dum Dum Dugan sometime in early 1940. I'm wondering if this is a similar situation with how they are reconciling SHIELD pre-existing the Modern Age by saying that the organization that appeared in Strange Tales was just a modern incarnation of SHIELD. Maybe the same could be said about the Howling Commandos. On paper they formed in 1942, but maybe -- just like Fury -- they operated in covert missions before hand and that could explain how they can appear in a story when Cap was still wearing his original costume and triangular shield.

As for Master Man and Warrior Woman appearing in the story.... Well issue #4 shows them getting killed and they are never identified by their real names in this story, so who's to say that these were the same characters introduced in the Invaders? These could be failed pre-cursors to the Master Man and Warrior Woman that were later seen later on in the decade. Since there have been all manner of super-humans and super-soldier variants introduced in all the years since Captain America Comics #1 to make the whole "the formula died with Reinstein" plot device not very accurate anymore.

There are some slight liberties that can make Flags of Our Fathers work and then you can slot the events of that story taking place around the flashback seen in Black Panther (vol. 3) #30, swapping out T'Chaka's name for Azzuri

[Nausiated]

I've also took some time to flip through Rise of the Black Panther and I think that series can fit with Earth-616 continuity if you don't take everything at face value and give some wiggle room.

Let me explained.

Issue #1:

- Starts in World War II, establishing Azzuri's meeting with Captain America. A call back to Flags of our Fathers. I think I explained how that could fit into continuity pretty well above and that all of that stuff can be slotted around the flashback from Black Panther (vol. 3) #30

- A vast majority of the rest of the story focuses on T'Chaka's time as rule. Showing early encounters with Hydra, Howard Stark, and SHIELD. This can all easily fit with continuity as later stories show that SHIELD pre-existed it's first appearance in Strange Tales. We also know from various stories that Hydra was also active prior to their first appearances as well.

- It ends with another retelling of T'Chaka's death. It is pretty much an updated version of the origin told in Fantastic Four #53. Which has been the going retelling of T'Challa's origins for some time now. The only conflict this makes is the version that Klaw tells in Black Panther (vol. 4) #3, which tells a totally different story. When I look back at this story, I always think that Klaw's differing account was an embellishment of events to try to make him sound more bad ass and is probably an outright fabrication to make him look better to the people he's telling that story to. On the other hand, maybe Klaw's version of events happened as well, only it was a botched assassination attempt that T'Chaka survived which led to the later encounter in FF #53 (I'm always a fan of "everything counts" instead of haphazardly tossing out continuity, that trick never works)

Issue #2:

- Focuses on T'Challa's early days as the Black Panther. It adapts elements from a flashback in Black Panther (vol. 1) #8. The whole "fight his predecessor with a mask on" thing.

- When monitoring events of the outside world we see recordings of the FF's battle with Galactus, Thor's encounter with the Stone Men from Saturn, and the X-Men battling Magneto (presumably) for the first time. Since these are all wildly different points in Marvel history, I think it's safe to assume that this less a live feed and more a compellation of potential threats to Wakanda (Galactus, a god walking the earth, and mutants)

- This story also sets up the plot about Erik Killmonger being lost in America, much like in Jungle Action (vol. 2). That matches established continuity.

- The encounter with Namor, I agree with everyone's assessment that his costume is a minor issue, dude's allowed to wear different clothes. Whose to say the black costume wasn't inspired by other Atlantean fashion. Another thing people could probably argue that Namor doesn't doesn't remember his early encounter with T'Challa. While that's due to the publication dates and what-have-you, I think an in-universe explanation is pretty simple. This story is set in a same time period where Subby doesn't remember his wartime encounters with Captain America either, so we could chalk up Namor not recalling meeting Namor previously because his memory was still scrambled after getting over amnesia. Or you know, maybe it's not so pertinent to rhyme off every time they met in the past. As far as I can remember, the first published encounter (the exact issue escapes me) between the Black Panther and the Sub-Mariner, the two don't acknowledge a past meeting but at the same time they also don't act like they don't know each other. Proving a negative and all that.

Issue #3 & 4:

- Wakanda reveals itself to the world. This is a huge sticking point for sure since Wakanda was supposedly kept its self secret from the rest of the world until Black Panther #14. Still, issue #4 reveals that although Wakanda reveals itself to the world in this story, its location is still kept a secret since Doctor Doom has to get its location from Jakarra in issue #4. I think what we could assume is that Wakanda made its existence public but its location remained a secret until Black Panther #14 when T'Challa decided to open up his nation to the world. Rise of Black Panther still depicts Wakanda as a insulated nation despite the public profile.

Issue #5:

- This issue also shows T'Challa using his Luke Charles identity in Harlem before he used it in whatever issue of the Avengers he first started using it. I should point out that T'Challa suddenly had this alter-ego in that Avengers story without any insight into how he developed it. I think it makes more sense that he established the Luke Charles identity prior to his involvement with the Avengers. It makes the idea more believable than him suddenly deciding he wants to be a teacher one day and just comes up with a new identity like that.

- Another problem is when later on in this issue Storm (pre X-Men) helps T'Challa stop the Hyena Clan and his step brother Jakarra from attacking the Barrier facility in Kenya. In that clash, Jakarra exposes himself to unrefined Vibranium and changes into a pink monster. This would appear to put it into conflict with Black Panther #5-10 which features Jakarra becoming this monster for the first time etc. etc.

This last issue I think that both of Jakarra's transformations can be true, hear me out. How many characters exist that undergo monstrous transformations only to be reverted back to normal with no memory of what happened to them? Bruce Banner has a hard time remembering stuff he did as the Hulk. Happy Hogan and Eddie March never forget what happened to them when they were turned into the Freak. The Green Goblin suffered from selective amnesia a lot in the early days. How can the same not be true with Jakarra?

So here's the thing: The only people saw Jakarra's earlier transformation were T'Challa, Storm, and members of the Hyenah clan. It ends with Jakarra being dumped in the volcano. When Storm asks "do you think he's dead" T'Challa says "I don't know, not enough data." in the next issue, T'Challa states that Jakarra is in alive but in a comatose state.

I think that it is within the realm of possibility that T'Challa managed to cure Jakarra and he had no memory of this transformation and maybe he forgot about his past crimes against Wakanda so, T'Challa just plopped him back into Wakandan society and figured that problem was solved and didn't tell anyone about it. This is not an outlandish idea as many, many, many heros have been content to leave a former enemy wander around when they forget their past criminal life.

Issue #6:

This story is a doozy, since it has T'Challa fighting Erik Killmonger prior to his joining the Avengers, which seems to negate the events of their first published encounter in Jungle Action vol. 2.

However, you have to again account for the events of what happened in this story: Killmonger makes his move by attacking a secret council meeting between Wakandan officials and SHIELD to discuss a partnership. The key word being a *secret* meeting. The story ends with Killmonger's attempt to set off a Vibranium bomb and then falling into a lake while wrapped up in energy restraints, his body is never found.

I think this story could still exist and the events of Jungle Action could still be true. It takes a a few assumptions, but look at it this way: When T'Challa recounts how he eventually brought Killmonger back to Wakanda he doesn't mention this previous battle because it happened during a secret meeting. Meaning, he isn't just going to tell people about it out of the blue.

Suppose this battle with Killmonger happened. Killmonger escapes. Later comes back to T'Challa after he has established himself with the Avengers and says "Hey, I'm reformed" and convinces T'Challa to take him back home. While that may sound like a stretch, but then again Killmonger was able to sweet talk him way into a full blown insurrection when he get back to Wakanda in Jungle Action. Whose to say he didn't use that same charisma to trick T'Challa into thinking he had reformed? T'Challa has already demonstrated that he would rather punish his foes with Wakandan justice. If Killmonger turned up after almost blowing stuff up at a secret SHIELD meeting, I think T'Challa would be more inclined to bring him back to Wakanda to keep an eye on him rather than hand him over to SHIELD. Especially since later Black Panther stories (volume 3 thereabouts) reveals that T'Challa didn't really trust his allies in these early days and only acted so friendly so he could gather intel while he was trying to decide if he could trust them or not. We've also seen T'Challa use his diplomatic immunity to take American criminals to face justice in Wakanda (notably Klaw in Black Panther #14-15)

So T'Challa doesn't mention it because it was top secret. While Killmonger doesn't mention it but it's not like he confirms or denies that he and T'Challa ever fought prior to that storyline either (another prove a negative scenario).

So at the end of the day, I think you can fit Rise of the Black Panther into 616 continuity as long as you're forgiving and don't take past stories as immutable and set in concrete. There is no reason why any of the above couldn't fit into continuity if you consider all of the covert actions, faulty memories, undeserved forgiveness that is all over other stories that could have easily happened here to facilitate Rise's inclusion into continuity.