TOS 64/2

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RobinHoodMtl
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TOS 64/2

Post by RobinHoodMtl »

I know Tales of Suspense 64/2 is basically a retelling of Captain America Comics 1/2. However, it does bring a few elements that were not at all in the previous story. Here are the main differences:
  1. When Cap and Bucky read about Omar and Sando in the news paper in CAC 1/2 (3:2), TOS 64/2 (3:1-3:5) establishes that they are on KP duty and are scolded by Sgt. Duffy, who does not appear at all in the original story.
  2. In CAC 1/2 (3:6-4:2), Steve and Bucky take their seats and watch a bit of the show before they go backstage.
  3. TOS 64/2 (4:1-4:3) establishes that they did not go to their seats but went backstage immediately where they spotted Agent 13 trying to talk with Omar and Sando.
  4. In CAC 1/2 (6:2); the agent identifies herself as Betty Ross, working for the FBI, a job she will keep for several stories in the following CAC stories. In TOS 64/2 (7:1), she's just a WAC agent working with the FBI, which does not exclude that she's working with the FBI later on, but she does not tell her name. On TOS 64/2 (10:4), she only says she's known as Agent 13.
  5. In CAC 1/2 (6:1-6:6); Sando's last resort when his men are down is to use a bomb, which Bucky throws out the window, and the villain is left standing. In TOS 64/2 (9:3-9:6), Sando tries to shoot Cap down, but Bucky throws a chair him, which knocks him out.
  6. In TOS 64/2 (10), there is a whole scene where Agent 13 takes Omar's defense, saying that he was just an innocent pawn. Then they discuss Sando's motives and we see Steve and Bucky going back to their base in their military uniforms.
Since it is known that Golden Age stories are not the accurate statements of events, and since TOS 64/2 seem like a more official and complete version of the story, I think that the easiest way to solve the listings would be to replace the CAC 1/2 story with the TOS 64/2 story. Therefore, I would make the following changes:

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS and BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BARNES JR.
...
TOS 63/2 (10:5)
CA 423
CAC 1/2 --> CHANGE TO TOS 64/2
CAC 1/3
CAC 1/4

ROSS, BETTY
CAC 1/2 --> CHANGE TO TOS 64/2

CAC 2
CAC 4/3
...

SANDO/COL. WOLFGANG VON KRANTZ and OMAR
CAC 1/2 --> CHANGE TO TOS 64/2


DUFFY, SGT. MIKE
...
TOS 63/2
CA 215-FB
CA:SL 12-FB
TOS 64/2 <-- ADD
CAC 1/3
CAC 1/4

We could have broken down both stories and go panel to panel, but i'm pretty sure this is a waste of time since there are many differences between them both and TOS 64/2 kinda acts like a retcon.
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Russ Chappell
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Re: TOS 64/2

Post by Russ Chappell »

RobinHoodMtl wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:47 am We could have broken down both stories and go panel to panel, but i'm pretty sure this is a waste of time since there are many differences between them both and TOS 64/2 kinda acts like a retcon.
As revealed in TOS 72, aren't these WWII-era stories actually flashbacks, where Cap shares his exploits with Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch? That would mean any discrepancies can be chalked up to faulty memory.
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RobinHoodMtl
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Re: TOS 64/2

Post by RobinHoodMtl »

Indeed, TOS 72/2 establishes that the story of Cap's adventure in Greymoor Castle (TOS 69/2-71/2) comes from his memories, but we can't assume that all previous stories were based on his memories. In addition, the synopsis for TOS 72/2 in Official Index for Iron Man states: "After telling the Avengers about his encounter with Cedric Rawlings (TOS #69-71, '65),..." but nothing confirms that he told the Avengers about the stories in issues 63/2-68/2. In the dialog in TOS 72/2, the Avengers only bring up questions about his identity and the explanation he had to give his superiors for his apparent desertion during that particular adventure.

IMHO, if the writers intended to imply that the other stories were also Cap's retelling of the events, they would certainly have not passed the opportunity to use a blurb like "CAP TELLS EVERYTHING ABOUT HIS ORIGIN" or something like that right from the start. And even if that was a last minute editor's decision, they would not have limited the scope of his story to the Avengers the way Stan does at the bottom of the splash in TOS 72/2 when he writes: "...That's why we featured for the past two issues!", which, by the way, is an error on Stan's part because the story spanned over three issues! Of course, the omission does not exclude the possibility that he did relate all those stories to his teammates, but without further proof that he did, that remains only an assumption.

Cap's origin has been retconned over and over, so the authenticity and relevance of TOS 63/2 have been discussed and reviewed in length countless times on several forums including this one. It's probably why MCP has several lines from that issue in its listings. But TOS 64/2 is the only retelling of CAC 1/2. And given that most Golden Age stories are considered as embellished versions of actual events, I would tend to side with the Silver Age version, even if it is told from Cap. I see no reason why he would need to lie or embellish them (your listings do include the stories in TOS 66/2-71/2, after all). And besides, even if those events took place two decades ago for the readers, to Cap, they happened only a few years back because he was in suspended animation for so long. No doubt his memory is still... fresh! Uh-hum! :lol:

On a side note, going back to the Index poses a dilemma when it comes to the appearance of Betty Ross. in the character listing for CAC 1/2 in Official Index for Captain America, it clearly says: "Betty Ross (1st, FBI agent)". But in Iron Man Index, TOS 64/2 lists Agent 13 (only app), with a comment that the character was filled by Betty Ross in the original story, but no further clarification. (Thanks Marvel for leaving us in the dark!).

God knows how much I don't want to get into a debate like the one regarding the identity of Agent X-13 in the origin of Cap (Betty Ross, Cynthia Glass, or whoever it was decided after all those retcons, this is still unclear to me, but I digress...). As far as I know, we need to acknowledge the following elements:
  • Agent X-13 or Agent R was one of the few people who knew that Steve Rogers was the subject of Operation: Rebirth so it's very likely that she also knew about his double identity.
  • Neither Betty Ross nor Agent 13 knows about Cap's double identity in the Sando and Omar story.
  • In that story, Betty Ross works FOR the FBI, as she does in many Golden Age stories afterwards, whereas Agent 13 works for the WAC WITH the FBI. Close enough.
  • The plot for those women in both versions is just about the same: lady investigates Sando and Omar, nosy girl gets captured, damsel in distress is rescued by Cap and Bucky, the heroes leave the villains in her custody until FBI arrives.
I've only read the Golden Age stories about Betty Ross so I don't know if Silver Age confirms anything about her activities when she was around Captain America and before she took a costumed identity. I can only assume that she was an FBI agent for a while so I can easily accept that she was also Agent 13 in TOS 64/2. I don't want to spoil too much of my fun reading later issues ahead of time so I can't honestly make any enlightened suggestion. I just brought it up to raise a flag, but I'll leave that up to you guys.
RobinHoodMtl
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Re: TOS 64/2

Post by RobinHoodMtl »

Optionally, if you intend to recognize the Silver Age version, listings for that story could include a line like this:
TOS 64/2 ~ CAC 1/2

Except, of course, for Duffy, who only appears in the Silver Age version.
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