Chronology: Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers

[StrayLamb]

However there is something else which figures into this. The comments on FF#9 in #1 of the 1985 Fantastic Four Index point out that the FF's trip to Hollywood to make a movie can't have happened in Johnny Storm's school-time. Indeed it takes so long that it must be in a Summer Break. But this issue occurs before ASM#1/2~FF An#1/2, which in turn is before ASN#2/1's Spring Break. So this must be the Summer of the previous year!

There are more problems surrounding the Torch's timeline.

Before the FF: The Storms 1-3 [Johnny Storm is 15yo]
Fantastic Four 233 (8:3 - 8:4)-FB [Johnny’s Sophomore Year in High School (as per OMIFF 1 entry for FF 9), or Junior Year if his memory is correct, which it may not be]
Human Torch II 1 (1 - 7)-FB [During Finals of Johnny’s Sophomore Year][Early Summer]
Fantastic Four 659 {FF6 14} (9 - 11:4)-FB [Johnny trains over several weeks as back-up pilot. This must be during the Summer Break between Johnny’s Sophomore and Junior Years]
Fantastic Four 650/2 {FF6 5/2} (3:2 - 6)-FB [Johnny already back-up pilot]

If we allow all of the supposed Summer breaks, we would have to push back yet another year..

Fantastic Four 659 {FF6 14} (9 - 11:4)-FB [Johnny trains over several weeks as back-up pilot. 15yo. Summer Break between Johnny’s Freshman & Sophomore Years]

FF 9 [16yo. Summer Break between Johnny's Sophomore & Junior Years]

ASM3#1.2(7-10)~ASM#2/1 occur during Spring Break of Spidey's Sophomore Year.
PPSM An 2001 is the start of Summer Break between Spidey's Sophomore & Junior Years. (Around FF 16.)

Spidey's Senior Year:-
Av#1

FF 9 has to be placed within the context of the greater Marvel Universe, and placing it during a Summer break just won't work. Neither can it be Spring Break, as it has to take place prior to that for Spider-Man, UNLESS we ignore the supposition given in the OMIFF entry for FF 9 that ASM 2 must occur after the movie was released, which prompted Spidey to cash in on their fame, a supposition which is nowhere supported in the comics themeselves. Then we could have the FF making a quickie movie during Spring Break. After all, the FF are already famous in their own right.

[StrayLamb]

Updates in BOLD from recent forum posts.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
[...]
Fantastic Four 9 (1 - 5)
Tales to Astonish 43 (3:2 - 4:2)-FB
Tales to Astonish 40
Amazing Spider-Man Family 3
Journey Into Mystery 87 (10:5 - 10:6)
Incredible Hulk 4/2
Amazing Spider-Man 1
ASM 4-FB ~ MTIO 86-FB ~ FNSM@ 1-FB [Sandman Origin]
ASM3 1.2 (1 - 3) [Clash on patrol sees Vulture]
Amazing Spider-Man 1/2 ~ Fantastic Four Annual 1/2
ASM3 1.2 (4 - 9) [Clash sees SM leave FF]
ASM 1/2 (5.2 - 10) ~ ASM3 1.2 (10 - 12) [SM vs Chameleon]
ASM3 1.2 (13 - 20) [MS arranges staged fight between Clash and SM]
ASM3 1.3 (1 - 4) [Clash can't salvage the video of the fight]
ASM3 1.2 (13 - 20) [MS arranges staged fight between Clash and SM]
ASM3 1.3 (1 - 4) [Clash can't salvage the video of the fight]
ASM3 1.3 (5 - 6) [Clayton Cole & the nerd club set up for the Science Fair]
ASM3 1.3 (7 - 10) ~ ASM 2 [Spring Break]
ASM3 1.3 (11 - 21) [The Science Fair]
Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man 2018 Annual 1 (22)
Fantastic Four 9 (1 - 23:6) [This cannnot take place during Summer Break between his Sophomore & Junior Years, as stated in OMIFF 1, but must take place over a much shorter period of time, probably during Spring Break of Johnny’s Junior Year]
[...]

First, your second entry for Fantastic Four 9 should read (6 - 23:6) instead of (1 - 23:6) since your first entry has (1 - 5). It is ok to split these because the second segment takes place several days later as they arrive at the studio and meet Namor, and the third segment (not listed here) seems fine where it is because of the time required in post-production of the movie before it is released and the Fantastic Four are acclaimed.

Second, last panel of page 5 shows that the FF are on their way to Hollywood so Amazing Spider-Man 1/2 ~ Fantastic Four Annual 1/2 cannot occur in between. Therefore, I would move the second segment for Fantastic Four 9 before Spidey's visit at Baxter Building.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Amazing Spider-Man 2/1 is missing in your most up-to-date list. In your original list, you had it placed like this

ASM3 1.3 (1-6)
Amazing Spider-Man 2/1
ASM3 1.3 (7-21)

[RobinHoodMtl]

Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
[...]
Fantastic Four 16-17
Alias 22 (21 - 22)
Alias 23 (1 - 14)
Amazing Spider-Man 4
Amazing Spider-Man 5 (3:4 - 3:7)-FB
[...]

Fantastic Four 17 ends with Dr. Doom apparently falling to his death. Unless there is something in the Alias issues in relation to this (I have not read them yet), Amazing Spider-Man 5 (3:4 - 3:7)-FB should appear right after this issue and not after Amazing Spider-Man 4 because it is a flashback on how Dr. Doom survived the fall.

Your first version had Amazing Spider-Man 4 before Fantastic Four 16-17 but I don't think it changes much whether it is place there or anywhere after the Alias issues.

[StrayLamb]

Thanks Robin. I've cleaned up those areas, but i've moved FF 9 (1 - 5) down the list closer to to the second section, and shortened the gap between them, to keep the Spring Break episodes together.

[RobinHoodMtl]

I'm not sure what is your guideline regarding the inclusion of flashbacks in your list, so correct me if I'm wrong here. From what I can see, you don't include flashbacks when they are within the limits of an issue. For example, if there is flashback explaining what a hero secretly did a few pages earlier, you would not include it. Right?

But I know you include flashbacks about origin stories or stuff that happens between issues. I may have a few in my own chronology that I would like to bring up, if you don't mind.

Fantastic Four 22 (13:6-14:1): the Mole deals with the aftermath of his first encounter with the Fantastic Four and starts working on building platforms under Earth's largest cities. The easiest place to insert these panels would be right after Fantastic Four: First Family 2 (15-22). Given there is no time scale given in the narrative, I would assume that his escape through the tunnels would be done right away and he would probably put his slaves immediately to work.

I do not think we should include panel 14:2 that illustrates the underground platform. Seems too hypothetical, and my guess is that the Mole Man was bluffing. So far, I have not read an issue that ever mentions what happened to those platforms and later issues seem to prove that they never existed, among others, when Stark's plant is sucked underground or when the Red Skull traps New York in a plastic bubble. As for panels 14:3-14:5, they are only projections in the mind of the Mole Man and will never happen.

---
The panel in Journey Into Mystery 89 (3:4) shows Thor making a pledge to Odin which never appeared in Journey Into Mystery 83, whereas the preceding panels (3:1-3:3) of Journey Into Mystery 89 are a repeat of Thor discovering the properties of his hammer. According to official Index for Thor, this panel goes right after Journey Into Mystery 83.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
[...]
Strange Tales 104
Journey Into Mystery 87 (3:9 - 10:4) ~ Journey Into Mystery 88 (2:4 - 3:4)-FB
Strange Tales 108 (6:4 - 7:4)-FB
Tales to Astonish 39
Strange Tales 105
Wolverine & Cable: Guts & Glory 1
Strange Tales 106
Fantastic Four 543 (6:3) [The FF’s first press conference to include Johnny Storm]
Incredible Hulk 4 [Rick Jones is 16yo]
Tales to Astonish 43 (3:2 - 4:2)-FB
Tales to Astonish 40
Amazing Spider-Man Family 3
Journey Into Mystery 87 (10:5 - 10:6)
Incredible Hulk 4/2
Amazing Spider-Man 1
ASM 4-FB ~ MTIO 86-FB ~ FNSM@ 1-FB [Sandman Origin]
ASM3 1.2 (1 - 3) [Clash on patrol sees Vulture]
Amazing Spider-Man 1/2 (1 - 5:1) ~ Fantastic Four Annual 1/2
ASM3 1.2 (4 - 9) [Clash sees SM leave FF]
Amazing Spider-Man 1/2 (5:2 - 10) ~ ASM3 1.2 (10 - 12) [SM vs Chameleon]
ASM3 1.2 (13 - 20) [MS arranges staged fight between Clash and SM]
ASM3 1.3 (1 - 4) [Clash can't salvage the video of the fight]
ASM3 1.3 (5 - 6) [Clayton Cole & the nerd club set up for the Science Fair]
Fantastic Four 9 (1 - 5)
Amazing Spider-Man 2 ~ ASM3 1.3 (7 - 10) [Spring Break]
ASM3 1.3 (11 - 21) [The Science Fair]
Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man 2018 Annual 1 (22)
Fantastic Four 9 (6 - 23:6) [This cannnot take place during Summer Break between his Sophomore & Junior Years, as stated in OMIFF 1, but must take place over a much shorter period of time, probably during Spring Break of Johnny’s Junior Year]
Marvels: Eye of the Camera 1 (10/11:8 - 12:1)
Journey Into Mystery 88 (3:5 - 13)
Marvels: Eye of the Camera 1 (12:2 - 14)
Marvels: Eye of the Camera 1 (15 - 16)
Incredible Hulk 5/1 (1 - 4:1)
Marvels: Eye of the Camera 1 (17 - 19)
Incredible Hulk 5/1 (4:2 - 9:6)
Tales to Astonish 41
Tales of Suspense 40 (4:3 - 13)
Fury 1 (13 - 24)
Tales of Suspense 41 (3)-FB
Tales of Suspense 41 (4:3 - 4:5)-FB
Iron Man: The Iron Age 1 (3)
Tales of Suspense 41 (4:6 - 4:7)-FB
Tales of Suspense 41 (1 - 10:4)
Tales to Astonish 42
Fantastic Four 9 (23:7)
Fantastic Four 10
[...]

Any reasons why Strange Tales issues 104 to 106 are place so early in the list? According to MCP and Official Index for Spider-Man, Issue 104 goes after Amazing Spider-Man 1/2, and between Fantastic Four 9 and 10. and MCP places Fantastic Four 11 between Strange Tales 105 and 106. I understand that you placed the Fantastic Four trip to Hollywood not far after Spider-Man spring break so it would fit with Johnny's, but unless a later issue has established that those Strange Tales stories occur before, the logic for their placement in your list eludes me.

[RobinHoodMtl]

Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
Strange Tales 116/1 (2)

Should be Strange Tales 116/1 (2)-FB since this is obviously a flashback on how Puppet Master survived after FF 14.

[StrayLamb]

I'm not sure what is your guideline regarding the inclusion of flashbacks in your list, so correct me if I'm wrong here. From what I can see, you don't include flashbacks when they are within the limits of an issue. For example, if there is flashback explaining what a hero secretly did a few pages earlier, you would not include it. Right?

But I know you include flashbacks about origin stories or stuff that happens between issues.

Yep, that's correct.

I may have a few in my own chronology that I would like to bring up, if you don't mind.

Go for it!

Fantastic Four 22 (13:6-14:1): the Mole deals with the aftermath of his first encounter with the Fantastic Four and starts working on building platforms under Earth's largest cities. The easiest place to insert these panels would be right after Fantastic Four: First Family 2 (15-22). Given there is no time scale given in the narrative, I would assume that his escape through the tunnels would be done right away and he would probably put his slaves immediately to work.

I do not think we should include panel 14:2 that illustrates the underground platform. Seems too hypothetical, and my guess is that the Mole Man was bluffing. So far, I have not read an issue that ever mentions what happened to those platforms and later issues seem to prove that they never existed, among others, when Stark's plant is sucked underground or when the Red Skull traps New York in a plastic bubble. As for panels 14:3-14:5, they are only projections in the mind of the Mole Man and will never happen.

---
The panel in Journey Into Mystery 89 (3:4) shows Thor making a pledge to Odin which never appeared in Journey Into Mystery 83, whereas the preceding panels (3:1-3:3) of Journey Into Mystery 89 are a repeat of Thor discovering the properties of his hammer. According to official Index for Thor, this panel goes right after Journey Into Mystery 83.

Thanks - i'll add those in.

[StrayLamb]

Any reasons why Strange Tales issues 104 to 106 are place so early in the list? According to MCP and Official Index for Spider-Man, Issue 104 goes after Amazing Spider-Man 1/2, and between Fantastic Four 9 and 10. and MCP places Fantastic Four 11 between Strange Tales 105 and 106. I understand that you placed the Fantastic Four trip to Hollywood not far after Spider-Man spring break so it would fit with Johnny's, but unless a later issue has established that those Strange Tales stories occur before, the logic for their placement in your list eludes me.

The reasoning for those placements is given here.

Should be Strange Tales 116/1 (2)-FB since this is obviously a flashback on how Puppet Master survived after FF 14.

Yes indeed. Updates applied.

[StrayLamb]

Further updates applied.

[Siabod]

Hey

You've got:
"Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
Before the FF: Ben Grimm & Logan 1-3
Before the FF: Ben Grimm & Logan 1-3
Before the FF: The Storms 1-3 [Johnny Storm is 15yo]"

Is it meant to be:
"Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
Before the FF: Ben Grimm & Logan 1-3
Before the FF: Reed Richards 1-3
Before the FF: The Storms 1-3 [Johnny Storm is 15yo]

[RobinHoodMtl]

Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
...
Fantastic Four 18
Fantastic Four Annual 1/1 (1 - 4)
Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual 1
...
Strange Tales Annual 2
Fantastic Four Annual 1 (4 - 37)
Untold Tales of Spider-Man 14 (16:2 - 16:5)-FB
...

Second part of Fantastic Four Annual 1 should start at page 5. Also, why would this part omit "/1" when first part does not?

[StrayLamb]

You've got:
"Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
Before the FF: Ben Grimm & Logan 1-3
Before the FF: Ben Grimm & Logan 1-3
Before the FF: The Storms 1-3 [Johnny Storm is 15yo]"

Is it meant to be:
"Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
Before the FF: Ben Grimm & Logan 1-3
Before the FF: Reed Richards 1-3
Before the FF: The Storms 1-3 [Johnny Storm is 15yo]

No, Ben Grimm & Logan is duplicated. Fixed, thanks.

Birth of the Fantastic Four to Birth of the Avengers:
...
Fantastic Four 18
Fantastic Four Annual 1/1 (1 - 4)
Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual 1
...
Strange Tales Annual 2
Fantastic Four Annual 1 (4 - 37)
Untold Tales of Spider-Man 14 (16:2 - 16:5)-FB
...

Second part of Fantastic Four Annual 1 should start at page 5. Also, why would this part omit "/1" when first part does not?

Striving for consistency - doesn't always work. I'm dropping the /1 for first stories as per MCP norms.