Two-Gun Kid in DD 215

[michel]

Two-Gun Kid appears in DD 215, beginning a story in the past that Daredevil will conclude in the present. This appearance is not in his listing, but where should we put it? By publication date, it should be between A 175 and WCA2 18. He seems not to remember he's travelled in the future ("Some day, the trial procedure will be a whole lot more complicated. A judge won't be able to dismiss a case so easily. Now why'd I think that?").

What do you think?

[Leoparis]

Listing time-travelers from the past by publication date is a risky proposition.

TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"
KCOL 141
AFVR 4
INDH 11
INDH 12
AFVR 6
A 141-BTS
A 142 1873
A 143 goes to present
A 144
A 147
M/TALES2 100/2
CHMPS 11
A 161
A 162
GR2 27
A 168
A 172
A 173-BTS
A 174
A 175 returns to 1874 (Moondragon is present)
UACC 1 (after 1874)
WCA2 18 1876
WCA2 19
WCA2 20
WCA2 21
WCA2 22
WCA2 23
M/CP 116/4 (town of Tombstone, Thunder dies?)
BP3 46 1875
BP3 47
TCORPS 3 ????
M/W:TGK-FB Tombstone, 1876
RK4 2 1880-1881
RK4 3
RK4 4
TGK:SR 1 1885
TGK:SR 2
BOG 2
BOG 3
BOG 4
SH2 3-BTS
SH2 4 going back to present
SH2 5
SH2 14 (14:5)-FB
SH2 6
SH2 7
SH2 9
SH2 20-FB
SH2 10
SH2 11 (1 - 9)
M/W:TGK ~ SH2 11 (10 - 12:2)
SH2 11 (12:3 - 22)
SH2 12
SH2 14-FB
SH2 16
SH2 17
SH2 18
SH2 19
SH2 20
SH2 21
SH2 29-FB
A:I 16
A:I SPEC
SH2 37-FB
M/ASS 1/3-FB
M/PROJECT 8 in the present
M/PROJECT 1 dies of old age
FI:YIR 1 in the present
FI:YIR 2-BTS
FI:YIR 4
FAL2 4 in Hell
FAL2 5
FAL2 8 in Hell

Well, when he returns to the past in A 175, Moondragon is present and mind wipe (temporarily) his memory. And his memory returns in DD 215, as he leaves a message for Matt Murdock.

But...

The year he was picked from in A 142 was 1873. He returned to the past in 1874 per WCA 18.

In DD 215 Chester Arthur is president (Sept 20, 1881- March 4, 1885)

West Coast Avengers 18-23 is in 1876.

BP3 46 takes place in 1875.

There is no date for TCORPS 3. But the cowboys seem unfamiliar both with dinosaurs (which they saw in AFVR 4) and Thor (from A 142-143). So either it takes place before AFVR 4 (which leads to A 142) or there is some amnesia.

RK4 should take place in 1880-1881 cf viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12769

By 19th century dates DD 215 should be between RK4 4 and TGK:SR 1.


So his chrono would look like this:
TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"
KCOL 141
AFVR 4
INDH 11
INDH 12
**TCORPS 3 ???? move here
AFVR 6
A 141-BTS
A 142 1873
A 143
A 144
A 147
M/TALES2 100/2
CHMPS 11
A 161
A 162
GR2 27
A 168
A 172
A 173-BTS
A 174
A 175 returns to 1874 (Moondragon is present)
UACC 1 (after 1874)
**BP3 46 1875 move here
**BP3 47 move from
WCA2 18 1876
WCA2 19
WCA2 20
WCA2 21
WCA2 22
WCA2 23
M/CP 116/4 (town of Tombstone, Thunder dies?)
**BP3 46 1875 move from here
**BP3 47 move from here
**TCORPS 3 ???? move from here
M/W:TGK-FB Tombstone, 1876
RK4 2 1880-1881
RK4 3
RK4 4

**DD 215 add here
TGK:SR 1 1885
TGK:SR 2
BOG 2
BOG 3
BOG 4

SH2 3-BTS
SH2 4 going back to present
SH2 5
SH2 14 (14:5)-FB
SH2 6
SH2 7
SH2 9
SH2 20-FB
SH2 10
SH2 11 (1 - 9)
M/W:TGK ~ SH2 11 (10 - 12:2)
SH2 11 (12:3 - 22)
SH2 12
SH2 14-FB
SH2 16
SH2 17
SH2 18
SH2 19
SH2 20
SH2 21
SH2 29-FB
A:I 16
A:I SPEC
SH2 37-FB
M/ASS 1/3-FB
M/PROJECT 8 in the present
**M/PROJECT 1 dies of old age 1939 MOVE FROM HERE
FI:YIR 1 in the present
FI:YIR 2-BTS
FI:YIR 4

**M/PROJECT 1 dies of old age MOVE HERE
FAL2 4 in Hell
FAL2 5
FAL2 8 in Hell


Unless I missed something it was never stated from when he came to the present the second time (in SH2 4). I would surmise that Sunset Riders and Blaze of Glory take place after his second stay in the present.

So for his second stay in the present, he can have his memory wiped whenever he returns to the Old West and start remembering in DD 215, thus leading to Sunset Riders and Blaze of Glory. In that case move DD 215 to BOG 4 after FI:YIR 4. Or not.

Some modifications will have to be done to other characters as well. Any volunteers?

[michel]

Good job, Leoparis.

So for his second stay in the present, he can have his memory wiped whenever he returns to the Old West and start remembering in DD 215, thus leading to Sunset Riders and Blaze of Glory. In that case move DD 215 to BOG 4 after FI:YIR 4. Or not.

It makes sense that he knows how modern judges work after he's spent time working for lawyers (and I remember he's a lawyer himself).

Some modifications will have to be done to other characters as well. Any volunteers?

Characters from his time? Who do you have in mind?

[vanhornluke]

Still seems a shame such an important character's chronology doesn't include his own series yet.

[Clive_Reston]

Still seems a shame such an important character's chronology doesn't include his own series yet.

Agreed! One tricky aspect is that some later issues of his series seem to have reprinted stories from the Clay Harder period with Harder redrawn as Matt Hawk, which raises the question of which version is "real." But I might try to put together a draft chronology of his appearances in TGK.

[Clive_Reston]

OK. Here are the non-reprint Matt Hawk stories that appeared in Two-Gun Kid:

60
60/3
61
61/4
62
62/3
63
63/3
64
64/3
65
65/3
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75 (takes place during and around the Battle of the Alamo... i.e. 1836. Huh. Well, maybe it happened a different year in the 616...)
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85 (guest-stars Rawhide Kid)
86
86/2
87
87/2
88 (involves the Rattler, so after Rawhide Kid #37, FWIW)
88/2
89 (guest-stars Rawhide Kid & Kid Colt)
90
91
91/2
92
92/2
103
104/3

There is also the matter of the "Clay Harder stories reprinted as Matt Hawk stories." Those start happening with TGK 99; the peak of the weirdness is 101/2, which reprints Clay Harder's origin story, "The Legend of the Two-Gun Kid," from TGK 58/3, with Harder redrawn as Hawk... but still identified as Clay Harder! After #104, the reprints are almost all from #60 or after... except for #120/2, which is a mangled (but un-retouched) combination of two stories from #55, and #124/2, a reprint from #42 with a caption added to indicate that it's an adventure of Matt Hawk from after he graduated from law school but before he became the Two-Gun Kid.

(There are also some retouched-to-add-a-mask Clay Harder stories reprinted in Mighty Marvel Western; later issues of that series didn't retouch the original stories except to change Harder's name to Hawk, and added the same explanatory caption.)

My impulse is to add the original Hawk stories from TGK to Hawk's entry (and have a loud coughing fit around #75?), and not to bother with the Harder-changed-to-Hawk stories. But I'm very open to arguments.

[Leoparis]

Good job, Leoparis.

Thanks, Michel.

So for his second stay in the present, he can have his memory wiped whenever he returns to the Old West and start remembering in DD 215, thus leading to Sunset Riders and Blaze of Glory. In that case move DD 215 to BOG 4 after FI:YIR 4. Or not.

It makes sense that he knows how modern judges work after he's spent time working for lawyers (and I remember he's a lawyer himself).

Good point. It seems he would be more familiar with the evolution of the judge system (and his fate in history) after his second stay than during his first stay where he was on the road in the West.

Some modifications will have to be done to other characters as well. Any volunteers?

Characters from his time? Who do you have in mind?

Yes, I mean that I have not looked at characters present in all the stories I suggested moving. For example, if you move TCORPS 3 before AFVR 4, you need to move the other gunfighters from TCORPS 3 as well.

TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"
KCOL 141
**TCORPS 3 18?? MOVE HERE
AFVR 4
INDH 11
INDH 12
AFVR 6
A 141-BTS
A 142 1873
A 143
A 144
A 147
M/TALES2 100/2
CHMPS 11
A 161
A 162
GR2 27
A 168
A 172
A 173-BTS
A 174
A 175 returns to 1874 (Moondragon is present)
UACC 1 (after 1874)
**BP3 46 1875 MOVE HERE
**BP3 47 MOVE HERE
WCA2 18 1876
WCA2 19
WCA2 20
WCA2 21
WCA2 22
WCA2 23
M/CP 116/4 (town of Tombstone, Thunder dies?)
**BP3 46 1875 MOVE FROM HERE
**BP3 47 MOVE FROM HERE
**TCORPS 3 ???? MOVE FROM HERE
M/W:TGK-FB Tombstone, 1876
RK4 2 1880-1881
RK4 3
RK4 4

**TGK:SR 1 1885 MOVE FROM HERE
**TGK:SR 2 MOVE FROM HERE
**BOG 2 MOVE FROM HERE
**BOG 3 MOVE FROM HERE
**BOG 4 MOVE FROM HERE

SH2 3-BTS
SH2 4 going back to present
SH2 5
SH2 14 (14:5)-FB
SH2 6
SH2 7
SH2 9
SH2 20-FB
SH2 10
SH2 11 (1 - 9)
M/W:TGK ~ SH2 11 (10 - 12:2)
SH2 11 (12:3 - 22)
SH2 12
SH2 14-FB
SH2 16
SH2 17
SH2 18
SH2 19
SH2 20
SH2 21
SH2 29-FB
A:I 16
A:I SPEC
SH2 37-FB
M/ASS 1/3-FB
M/PROJECT 8 in the present
**M/PROJECT 1 dies of old age 1939 MOVE FROM HERE
FI:YIR 1 in the present
FI:YIR 2-BTS
FI:YIR 4

**DD 215 add here
**TGK:SR 1 1885 MOVE HERE
**TGK:SR 2 MOVE HERE
**BOG 2 MOVE HERE
**BOG 3 MOVE HERE
**BOG 4 MOVE HERE

**M/PROJECT 1 dies of old age MOVE HERE
FAL2 4 in Hell
FAL2 5
FAL2 8 in Hell

[michel]

My impulse is to add the original Hawk stories from TGK to Hawk's entry (and have a loud coughing fit around #75?), and not to bother with the Harder-changed-to-Hawk stories. But I'm very open to arguments.

I'm fine with that. Where would you put them in the corrected chronology Leoparis proposed just above?

[Leoparis]

They come first, before he meets other famous gunfighters in the Avengers issues.

[Clive_Reston]

By publication order (and there are no indicators I can see that contradict that), the new Two-Gun Kid story in KCOL 141 (really KCOL 141/3) should be between TGK 92/2 and TGK 103.

At the time of his appearances in Avengers Forever 4 and 6, he and Kang are already familiar with each other (and Kang has already threatened him with revenge); they first encounter each other in Avengers 142-144, so it should be after he returns to the 19th century in Avengers 175.

But he doesn't *meet* the other famous gunfighters in those Avengers issues; they're already familiar with each other (so the Avengers sequence is at some point after TGK 89).

(Also, how do you get his appearances in INDH 11-12 between AFVR 4 and AFVR 6? Am I missing something?)

In Thor Corps 3, Two-Gun finds his circumstances exceptionally weird, which suggests that it's before he started running into Avengers and such all the time.

In other words, I'd propose:

TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"

[...]
TGK 92
TGK 92/2
KCOL 141/3
TGK 103
TGK 104/3
TCORPS 3
INDH 11
INDH 12
A 141-BTS
A 142
[...]
A 175
AFVR 4
AFVR 6
UACC 1
BP3 46
BP3 47
WCA2 18
[...and onward from there!]

Also, in TGK 60, Matt Hawk notes that he got the Two-Gun Kid identity from "dime novels" about (the original) Clay Harder--which reopens the question of whether Clay Harder was fictional or real in 616. If he's real, Harder should be Two-Gun Kid I and Hawk should be Two-Gun Kid II (and the character from Six Guns should be Two-Gun Kid III). Basically a Sonny Boy Williamson kind of situation, if you'll forgive the non-comics reference.

[vanhornluke]

The Outlaw Files argues that Clay Harder was a real (i.e. 616) person. That would indicate that there were dime novels based on Clay's exploits that Matt read. He may not have realized that Clay was a real person.

As for the Alamo, I haven't checked this for myself, but I've been told that a later reprint of that story included a note saying that it was an imaginary tale (i.e. not 616). Is that true? If so, it gives an excuse to exclude that story.

[Clive_Reston]

As for the Alamo, I haven't checked this for myself, but I've been told that a later reprint of that story included a note saying that it was an imaginary tale (i.e. not 616). Is that true? If so, it gives an excuse to exclude that story.

Just checked: the reprint in #134 adds a caption on its first page that says "What would have happened if the Two-Gun Kid had lived 40 years earlier? Suppose the year was 1836. Maybe it would have happened like this..." Nice save, reprint editor!

[Leoparis]

A 141-142 Avengers meet gunfighters in 1873, near Tombstone. Kang arrived earlier and took over the town.

AFVR 4 Kang conjures a dinosaur from the past and sets it loose on KID COLT, RAWHIDE KID, TWO-GUN KID. They flee. A caption says the dinosaur disappears but we don't see this.

AFVR 6: The five gunfighters from A 142 want to make a play to free the town from Kang. Hawkeye has not joined them yet (as shown in 142-FB).

INDH 11-12: the same three gunfighters from AFVR 4 are being chased by a dinosaur and saved by Hulk. The caption says it's 1873.

In WCA 18 Two-Gun Kid says he left 1873 for the present, and returned in 1874.

I'm pretty certain Kurt Busiek in AFVR 4 & 6 refers to the earlier A 142.

Mark Waid seems to be referring to AFVR 4 in INDH 11-12 with the three heroes and the dinosaur. Unless this is an alternate universe where Tok Baltusar (a time-traveling villain) replaces Kang.

In doubt, we can separate INDH 11-12 from AFVR 4.

TCORPS 3
INDH 11
INDH 12
AFVR 4
AFVR 6
A 141-BTS

[Clive_Reston]

Ohhhh. Yes, that makes a lot of sense for INDH 11-12 to be between AFVR 4 and 6. Thank you!

[loki]

The Outlaw Files argues that Clay Harder was a real (i.e. 616) person. That would indicate that there were dime novels based on Clay's exploits that Matt read. He may not have realized that Clay was a real person.

Keep in mind that in the real world there were dime novels based around Buffalo Bill, Wild Bill Hickok, etc. And Blaze of Glory explicitly shows us that the Gunhawks at minimum had dime novels fictionalizing their adventures within 616. So it's not a stretch at all to assume the same is true for other 616 gunfighters, at which point Matt Hawk being inspired by Clay Harder dime novels in no way prevents Clay being a real person. Matt believing the stories are fictional doesn't prevent that; I recently watched a Youtube reaction video where some people watched Tombstone and at the end, when the movie recapped the subsequent fates of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday the reactors asked one another "What? Was that film based on real people?"

As for the Alamo, I haven't checked this for myself, but I've been told that a later reprint of that story included a note saying that it was an imaginary tale (i.e. not 616). Is that true? If so, it gives an excuse to exclude that story.

If we want to get meta, then remember that there have been times when the comics we read weren't depicting the "actual" events in 616, but the within-616 fictionalized versions (cf. the Marvel Team-Up story where Hercules towed a floating Manhattan, later revealed to be Hercules' exaggerated account of the actual event), so the Clay Harder stories reprinted as Matt Hawk stories might be considered to be something similar - like someone in 2150 telling of the adventures of Miles Morales, but unintentionally ascribing some of Peter Parker's adventures to Miles because the two share a codename.