Discrepancy with Red Skull Chronology RE: Crossbones

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Nausiated
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Discrepancy with Red Skull Chronology RE: Crossbones

Post by Nausiated »

I have been looking into Crossbones' chronology and I have found a glaring issue with how his appearances relate to his relationship with both the original Red Skull, Johann Schmidt and the communist Red Skull, Albert Malik.

The glaring issue is the appearance of the Red Skull in CA&CRB-FB. This appearance has been attributed to Schmidt as follows:

CA 263
CA&CRB-FB
CA5 15 (13:1 - 13:2)-FB
CA 298 (21)-FB

This is actually incorrect. The appearance should be attributed to Malik, not Schmidt.

Johann Schmidt did not meet Crossbones until the events of CA 383/4.
In that story, Brock Rumlow and a group of mercenaries were hired by Malik to break into Arnim Zola's castle. This led to Zola unleashing Doughboy on them. The Skull was impressed by Brock's loyalty and after a one-on-one fight hires Brock to become his new bodyguard, giving him the name Crossbones.

It should also be noted that the events of CA 383/4 appears as such in Schmidt's chronology

CA 300
CA 301
CA 350/2
CA 383/4
CA 368/2-FB
CA 321-BTS | cf CA 349
CA 326-BTS

The important thing to note is CA 300 During this period of time, the Red Skull was rapidly aging because the process that put him suspended animation for decades was wearing off. CA 350 shows that the Skull cheated death by having his mind downloaded into a clone body created from Captain America's DNA that was created by Arnim Zola. The story in CA 383/4 takes place immediately after the Red Skull woke up in his new body.

This is backed up in the Crossbones profile in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z Vol. 3 and the entry for CA 383 in the Official Index to the Marvel Universe: Captain America. Malik is listed as being BTS in CA 383/4.

When examining CA&CRB-FB, the scene in question is of the Taskmaster and someone in a Red Skull mask observing Brock Rumlow in a sparing session. Impressed, the Skull seen here expresses his interest in hiring Rumlow. There are only two panels of dialogue from the Red Skull and only one where we get a good look at him as seen here:
Image

and

Image

The writer of this story gives no indicators to single out which version of the Red Skull we're dealing with here. No affectations. No Nazi or Soviet symbology. Just a guy in a Red Skull mask in a trench coat. A look that both men have sported at one time or another. This flashback is also stated as happening "Fourteen Years Ago" from the perspective of the present day events in CA&CRB. Since CA&CRB was published in 2011, "14 years ago" in Marvel time puts these events just before the start of the Modern Age which began 13 years prior to the story based on the Sliding Timescale if you choose to go by the 4:1 ratio listed in the Marvel Handbooks. I think this measurement is off by about a year, which I'll explain in a second because this change will also affect the Taskmaster's chronology.

The point is: Regardless if the time measurement is off by a year, going back 13 to 14 years prior is also a point in time when Schmidt was still in suspended animation after getting buried alive in World War II. Albert Malik on the other hand, was alive and running around at the time.

As such, CA&CRB-FB need to be excised from Schmidt's chronology and added to Malik's as follows

RED SKULL III/ALBERT MALIK
YMEN 24/2-FB
CA@ 13 (20 - 21)-FB
YMEN 24/2
YMEN 27/2
CA@ 13 (24 - 30:2)-FB
{ASM@ 5-FB}
CA@ 13 (30:3)-FB
ASM@ 5
CA&CRB-FB
CA 383/4-BTS
SOLOA 6
CA@ 13 (30:4)-FB-BTS
CA 347

This change will have no effect on Crossbones' chronology as is, but it will impact the Taskmaster's chronology. Currently, it's listed as thus:

A:I 32 (1:2 - 1:5)-FB
TASK 4-FB
TASK2 3-FB
TASK2 2 (12:4)-FB-FB
A 196-FB
CA 403/2-FB
A 194-BTS
{A 195}
A 196 (1 - 15:3)
BSCARS 3 (1:2)-FB
A 196 (15:4 - 17)
M/TU 103
A 223
DP3 35-FB
CA&CRB-FB
1985 5-BTS

CA&CRB-FB is placed as happening after much later in Taskmaster's timeline. However, if this story takes place over a decade in the past from CA&CRB-FB, it would not fit in the same time period its listed in. Using A 223 as a point of reference (since DP3 and 1985 are flashback stories), these events happen sometime in the 1980s era of publications putting it somewhere year 6, year 7 of the Modern Age. Half the time specified in CA&CRB-FB.

The only place this story can fit is after TASK2 3-FB and TASK2 2 (12:4)-FB-FB. This was a period of time when Tony Masters was transitioning from a SHIELD agent into the Taskmaster. Per Nick Fury's narrative during these flashbacks, Masters was a SHIELD agent shortly after the Fantastic Four encountered the Hate-Monger in FF 21. Tony was on a mission to track down and destroy all the cloned brains of Adolf Hitler and this led to his getting his powers. He then set up shop as the Taskmater.

Then we have A 196-FB where he is setting up his henchman training school. Then we have CA 403/2 a story that shows that Brock Rumlow was part of the Taskmaster's school.

Since all evidence states that Brock was hired out of Taskmaster's school by Malik then the only logical place for this appearance to be moved is as follows:

A 196-FB
CA 403/2-FB
CA&CRB-FB
A 194-BTS
{A 195}

This works because when comparing all of the necessary stories, CA 383/4, CA&CRB-FB, CA 403/3 and so on, there is no indication how many years that Rumlow worked for Malik before encountering the Red Skull. Although it is not outright stated in any of these tales, it is never fully explained what exactly Malik hired him for. One could assume that Malik's hiring of Rumlow and his crew was to search for Hitler's long lost lockbox which was the central story in CA@ 13 and showed that Malik hunted the lockbox for decades. This is a reasonable explanation as to why Brock and his crew tried to break into Zola's castle, leading to his first encounter with the real Red Skull.
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Re: Discrepancy with Red Skull Chronology RE: Crossbones

Post by Leoparis »

Well done.

The fourteen years ago would indeed put the flashback before the start of the Marvel era, which not only could be quite a while ago for Rachel Leighton's age, but also before FF 21 and before Taskmaster's origin, which is clearly impossible. It could be construed as Brock enrolled under Taskmaster 14 years ago and the scene we see is after the three years he spent there, i.e. 11 years ago. (Not that I'm a stickler for rigid sliding scale rules but 11x4 = 44. 2011 - 44 = 1967 which looks better. Three years after FF 21 would stretch it to 1975, still before Taskmaster first appearance in A 195)

FF 21 > TASK2 3 becomes Taskmaster, founds school > ASM@ 5 > CA 403/2 > Rumlow after 3 years in school recruited by Malik >

Where would you put Nick Fury's appearance in the TASK2 flashbacks since this is missing in the listing?

It seems to me it should be as soon as possible after FF 21.
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Re: Discrepancy with Red Skull Chronology RE: Crossbones

Post by Nausiated »

Leoparis wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:01 am Well done.

The fourteen years ago would indeed put the flashback before the start of the Marvel era, which not only could be quite a while ago for Rachel Leighton's age, but also before FF 21 and before Taskmaster's origin, which is clearly impossible. It could be construed as Brock enrolled under Taskmaster 14 years ago and the scene we see is after the three years he spent there, i.e. 11 years ago. (Not that I'm a stickler for rigid sliding scale rules but 11x4 = 44. 2011 - 44 = 1967 which looks better. Three years after FF 21 would stretch it to 1975, still before Taskmaster first appearance in A 195)

FF 21 > TASK2 3 becomes Taskmaster, founds school > ASM@ 5 > CA 403/2 > Rumlow after 3 years in school recruited by Malik >

Where would you put Nick Fury's appearance in the TASK2 flashbacks since this is missing in the listing?

It seems to me it should be as soon as possible after FF 21.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Fury's part in all of the Taskmaster stuff. Man the rabbit holes you end up on doing this stuff, eh?
I think you might be right about TASK2 happening after FF 21. The only sticking point is that SHIELD -- as far as the original continuity goes -- hadn't formed. However, History of the Marvel Universe and multiple other stories of the past 5 years shows that SHIELD actually pre-existed its appearance in ST 135. I think the going idea is that ST 135 is not long the creation of SHIELD but the first time the organization has gone totally public, thus I think we can assume that Tony Masters was part of the pre-public incarnation of SHIELD and that would explain away Fury on a SHIELD mission before ST 135. I don't see any reason why that FB couldn't happen right after FF 21, the idea of cloned Hitlers doesn't seem like something Fury would just sit on for a whole lot of time given his time fighting Nazis during WWII.
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Re: Discrepancy with Red Skull Chronology RE: Crossbones

Post by Nausiated »

Leoparis wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:01 am i.e. 11 years ago. (Not that I'm a stickler for rigid sliding scale rules but 11x4 = 44. 2011 - 44 = 1967 which looks better. Three years after FF 21 would stretch it to 1975, still before Taskmaster first appearance in A 195)
This is an interesting concept, but those two panels are from the same scene on the same page. There isn't any indication that there was a passage of time between panels. It looks to me like this entire page is supposed to happen at one specific time "fourteen years ago". I guess you could get creative with the time, there's certainly not anything to argue against that. The MCP has spread out individual panels in crazier ways in the past. *Shrug*
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