Symbiote Spider-Man

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Leoparis
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Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by Leoparis »

Chronological clues
I only list a character if there is a chronological clue attached and the first time he appears.
Links are provided to the characters lists.

Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #1
Quentin Beck's friend Johnny, is Johnny Ohnn, the future Spot.
A footnote mentions that Power Pack #55 is in the future.
JJJ states "The Avengers remain silent about [Spider-Man's] involvement in their Secret War."
Felicia reminds Peter being "so angry because I don't care about your whole Peter Parker thing."
A note refers to Peter Parker #91.
"Today's the anniversary of the day my uncle Ben died at the hands of a burglar."
May is not speaking with Peter & wants Peter to go back to college.

Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #2
Johnny Ohnn's last name given here.

Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #3
Fisk mentions he hired Ohnn to research Cloak's powers. A footnote also identifies Ohnn with the scientist in Peter Parker #97. The footnote does not mean PPSSM 97 is in the past but in the future (like the Power Pack #55 note in #1).

In the second story we see a tourist arriving in NYC under the Four Freedoms Plaza building (first in Fantastic Four #289, April 1986) and a symbiote Spider-Man. This is the character freom PPSSM 98 as revealed in Absolute Carnage: Symbiote Spider-Man.

Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #4

Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #5

Symbiote Spider-Man: Alien Reality v1 #1
Dr. Strange, Black Widow, Spider-Man, Kraven appear in the beginning. Ned Leeds & Wong appear in flashback before the reality alteration. Spidey and Strange remember their previous state. Since Hobgoblin, Mordo, Daydream & Nightmare also know about the previous reality, they are probably the authentic versions.
From the reality alteration until the last pages of #5, we have "alternate" versions.
alternate Kraven
alternate Black Widow ("Red Cat")
alternate Wong
alternate? Hobgoblin [Ned Leeds]

Symbiote Spider-Man: Alien Reality v1 #2
alternate May Parker
alternate Ben Parker
Parker mentions he has not seen May since Symbiote Spider-Man #5.

Symbiote Spider-Man: Alien Reality v1 #3
alternate Morbius (vampiric & thinks Spidey had four arms the last time they met)
alternate Dr. Octopus
alternate? Baron Mordo

Symbiote Spider-Man: Alien Reality v1 #4
alternate Jonah Jameson (as Deathlok)
alternate? Daydream
alternate? Nightmare

Symbiote Spider-Man: Alien Reality v1 #5
Dr Strange (undoes the reality alteration)
Mordo
Hobgblin (disappears when the spell is undone)
Wong
Black Cat

King in Black: Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #1
Alistair Smythe (described as the Spider-Slayer guy and a super-villain, so after ASM Annual 19? or confused with his father?)
Mister E (from Marvel Spotlight 9)
Black Knight (coming from Avengers mansion per next issue)
Jameson
Kang
Rocket Raccoon
Ned Leeds

King in Black: Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #2
Robertson
Betty Brant

King in Black: Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #3
The Wayfarer spacecraft was unveiled last month by Tony Stark
Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau) is a teammate of Black Knight (so this cannot be before ASM 258)
Merlin (flashback)

King in Black: Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #4
Ulik
Ulica
Cosmo
Collector

King in Black: Symbiote Spider-Man v1 #5
Using the Black Knight's sword, Monica Rambeau kills Mister E and then dispels the black shape eclipsing the sun. The Watcher erases the memory of the participants.

Here are thoughts on Symbiote Spider-Man King In Black 1-5. Editorial provided placements for Wolverine: Black, White & Blood #4 and X-Men Legends #2 but none for this. The problem was acknowledged. The King in Black Handbook confirms, "The events of Symbiote Spider-Man: King in Black #1 (2020) depict Spider-Man wearing his symbiote costume at a time afer he had rejected it; how this came about remains unrevealed."

Here is my analysis:
Alistair Smythe is crippled and known as a super-villain (so presumably after his debut and crash in ASM Annual 19 and before ASM 291).

There is an unforeseen eclipse going on (same as during the Wraith War). It is stated that this is a godly influence from the future, which would make Knull bts in the Wraith War eclipse issues (Rom 61-65, Dec 84-Apr 85) if this is the same event.

Peter wears his familiar symbiote (or something similar related to the shadow-beings of that event or from Marvel Spotlight 9).

The Watcher, Kang and Rocket Raccoon appear. These do not influence the placement. With its handful of guest stars the story reads to me like a continuation of Marvel Team-Up if the title had continued after issue 150 rather than be replaced by Web of Spider-Man.

The presence of the Black Knight as a current Avenger would indicate we are after A 252-254, Feb-Apr 85 (so later than ASM 258, Nov 84 unless all Spider-Man or Avengers issues are scrambled around). Monica Rambeau recognizes Dane and addresses him by his first name, another hint that we're after he joins in A 252-254. Dane still has no idea who she is on page 7 of A 255. They only actually meet in A 259 where Dane says, "Pleased to meet you Captain." (And that issue takes place after the fight with Firelord in ASM 269-270.) Maybe Dane & Monica are both affected by the Watcher erasing their memory in Symbiote: KIB 5 if they had fought together in Rom 65-66. As for the Wasp saying, "I don't think you've formally met Dane Whitman", let's say she made a mistake since she was not yet an Avenger in Rom 65-66. The chronology requires that Monica went back to Earth after A 254 or 255 (15:3), fought in the Wraith War, did not find out that Vision has just tried to take over the world, was involved in Symbiote: KIB and went back to fulfil the fake mission. Dane is missing from Symbiote:KIB 4-5, so the Watcher might have returned him to the Avengers to appear in the Wraith War finale in Rom 65. Monica is also in Rom 65-66. With her speed of light powers she can easily cross vast distances but this is rather strained. The Avengers index, which placed Rom 65-66, during A 255 did not mention a spot during the issue since it would contradict Captain Marvel's continuity.

(Note: When rereading Rom 65-66, I have a doubt that Black Knight is there as an Avenger, there are many international heroes present and he could be there in that capacity, which explains why Monica and he don't known each other in A 255 & 259. In that case Rom 65-66 take place before A 252-254. In favor of that interpretation: American teams are present in Rom 65 & 66 while international heroes are missing in issue 66. And indeed Black Knight appears during the Wraith War in Rom 65 but not in its aftermath in Rom 66--supposedly between 15:3 & 15:4 of A 255, May 85, but might be better before 252.)

The contradiction is Symbiote: KIB is apparently taking place while Peter is wearing the symbiote and still dating Felicia but also after ASM Annual 19 (which is after WOSM 2 and thus after the destruction of the symbiote in WOSM 1) and also after Dane met Monica in A 259 (which is after ASM 269).

Annual 19 picks up a plot from WOSM 2, so the annual might need to take place right after WOSM 2-3 so that SSMKIB can take place during the Wraith War. (Note: Louise Simonson was replaced after WOSM 3 and so had to complete the dangling hat plot in the annual.)

The symbiote is supposed to be destroyed in WOSM 1 and only reappears as a subplot in WOSM 18 & 24.

The Wraith War issues themselves (Rom 61-66, Thing 22, FF 276-277, Dr Strange 75) could take place earlier or later than currently placed on the timeline since Spidey does not appear in them. (This might be Peter David's intention, show what Spidey was involved in during that event.) Maybe the Wraith War could take place during a break in WOSM 1 (Apr 85) so that Spidey's appearance in SSMKIB occurs while he's possessed by the symbiote. But that does not solve Alistair Smythe unless... Smythe was already crippled before his crash in Annual 19 and appears in SSMKIB possessed by a symbiote (it seems to be the case). (Symbiotes allowed crippled Flash Thompson and Cletus Kasady to walk.)

Other possibility: Spidey is possessed not by the symbiote but by a shadow being from Marvel Spotlight 9 or a shadow-wraith being such as those seen in Rom (deathwings) and these are what we see possessing people in SSMKIB. (The Wraith War looks like an obvious influence on King in Black.)

Possible breaks in WOSM 1:
After page 4
After page 10
After page 22 (hypothesis: the symbiote gave Peter partial amnesia and it's Rom's weapon in Rom 66 which destroys the symbiote rather than the bells)

Possible timeline:
WOSM 1 (1-?) Spidey gets possessed by symbiote
Wraith War begins
SSMKIB Smythe (possessed by symbiote), Spidey (possessed by symbiote)
Wraith War ends
WOSM 1 (?-23) Peter's symbiote destroyed
WOSM 2 Vulturion Kingpin Aunt May's hat plot
WOSM 3 conclusion of Vulturion plot
ASM Annual 19 conclusion of Aunt May's hat plot. Alistair Smythe still possessed by his symbiote. The symbiote is destroyed by the volts when Smythe's flying saucer crashes into electric lines and Smythe is crippled again in his next appearance in ASM 291.

I don't know if it's possible to place A 254 before the second part of ASM 258 but I doubt that very much as the King in Black Handbook stated the series took place after Peter had rejected the symbiote costume.
Spoiler:
All these issues would need to be reorganized:
*All Avengers-related appearances up to 254 to come here*
Amazing Spider-Man 258 (11 - 21)
Uncanny X-Men 185 (8:6 - 22)
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 1
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 2 (1 - 19)
Amazing Spider-Man 258 (22)
Avengers 249 (1 - 3:3)
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 2 (20 - 23)
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 3
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 4 (1 - 15)
Uncanny X-Men 186-187
Uncanny X-Men 188 (1 - 11)
Rom 60
New Defenders 134-138
New Defenders 139 (1 - 6)
Thor 349
Thor 350 (1 - 11:4)
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 4 (16 - 21:7)
Avengers 249 (3:4 - 8)
Thor 350 (11:5)
Avengers 249 (9 - 10:1)
Thor 350 (12 - 13:2)
Avengers 249 (10:2)
Avengers 249 (10:3 - 13) ~ Thor 350 (13:3 - 14:4)
Avengers 249 (14 - 22)
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man 96 (1 - 22)
Thor 350 (14:5 - 22)
Thor 351-352
Code of Honor 4 (?? - ??)
Thor 353
Thor 354 (1-10)
*** CASKET OF ANCIENT WINTERS ENDS***
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 4 (21:8 - 22)
West Coast Avengers 3-4
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 4 (23)
Captain America 295-301
Uncanny X-Men 188 (12 - 21)
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 5
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 6 (1 - 22:4)
Thor Annual 13
Marvel Team-Up Annual 7/2
Fantastic Four 271-273
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man 97
Marvel Team-Up 147 (1 - 23)
Marvel Team-Up 148
Amazing Spider-Man 258 (23) = Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man 96 (23) = Marvel Team-Up 147 (24)
Amazing Spider-Man 259
Daredevil 212-214
Amazing Spider-Man Annual 18 [J. Jonah Jameson marries Marla]
Thing 11-18
Questprobe 2-3
Spider-Man Family II 5/2
Amazing Spider-Man 260
Fantastic Four 274 (1 - 5)
Thing 19
Fantastic Four 274 (6 - 20)
Amazing Spider-Man 261
Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four II 2 (1 - 3)
Fantastic Four 274 (21 - 22) ~ Amazing Spider-Man 261 (8) ~ Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four II 2 (4)
Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four II 2 (5 - 22)
Fantastic Four 275 (1 - 20)
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 98
Marvel Team-Up 149
Amazing Spider-Man 262
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 99
Wolverine: Exit Wounds 1/2
Kitty Pryde & Wolverine 6 (22:4 - 23)
Marvel Team-Up 150
New Mutants 22-25
Rom Annual 3
Uncanny X-Men Annual 8
Marvel Super-Heroes Special Edition 2/2
Uncanny X-Men 188 (22)
Uncanny X-Men 189-191
Uncanny X-Men 192 (1 - 21:3)
Doctor Strange 69-70
Incredible Hulk 301
Incredible Hulk Annual 13
Incredible Hulk 302-308
Alpha Flight 14 (1 - 3)
Alpha Flight 15 (1 - 3)-FB
Alpha Flight 14 (4 - 22)
Alpha Flight 15-17
Sub-Mariner Mini-Series 1-4
Captain America 350/2
Marvel Fanfare 15/2
Daredevil 215-218
Avengers 250-251
Power Pack 1-5 [Autumn]
Iron Man 189-190
Marvel Fanfare 18
Marvel Fanfare 29/2
Captain America 302-304
Amazing Spider-Man 263
Amazing Spider-Man 266 (1 - 4)
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 100
Web of Spider-Man 1 (1 - 18)
Web of Spider-Man 1 (19 - 22) ~ Deadpool: Back in Black 1 (1 - 3:1)
Deadpool: Back in Black 1 (3:2 - 3:6)
Power Pack 6-8
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 101 (1 - 22:4) [September]
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 101 (22:5 - 22:9)
Web of Spider-Man 2 (1 - 3:5)
Web of Spider-Man 2 (3:6 - 22) [A week later]
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 102 (1 - 22:5)
Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man 102 (22:6 - 22:9)
Amazing Spider-Man 264
Marvel Graphic Novel 17 [Revenge of the Living Monolith]
Daredevils 1-4
Thing 20-21
Thing 22 (1 - 17)
New Defenders 139 (7 - 22)
New Defenders 140-141
New Defenders 148
Avengers 252-254
Avengers 255 (1 - 15:4)
Black Knight and Captain Marvel are Avengers until A 294 but I doubt there is a case where the symbiote possesses Spider-Man after the creation of Venom. Since it's difficult to wait for A 259 where they meet to place this series I see three possibilities:

1. It takes place around PPSSM 98, the symbiote has escaped and people possessed by it have no memory of what happened to them. There is a blackout and this is the Spot's origin. This is a serendipitous spot to place the events of Wraith War and Symbiote King in Black. Pros: The symbiote is free, Peter and the Black Cat are still a couple. Cons: [It requires a memory loss that the costume is a live symbiote,] this is before Alistair Smythe is a super-villain.

2. There is a long break in the middle of WOSM 1. Pros: Peter is wearing the symbiote. Cons: [It requires a memory loss that the costume is a live symbiote,] it's after Peter broke up with Felicia, this is before Alistair Smythe is a super-villain.

3. It takes place after Annual 19 (because of Alistair Smythe) and Peter's mysteriously possessed by his resurrected symbiote or another simili-symbiote without remembering it's a live being. In WOSM 1 the symbiote can imitate the blue and red costume. Hypothesis: Right after WOSM 1 the symbiote is resurrected by the Intelligencia, imitates the blue and red costume in WOSM 2 & 3, Annual 19 and after it has learned to selectively alter Peter's memory, shifts its color to black. Pros: It's after Alistair Smythe has become a super-villain and got crippled. Cons: [It requires a memory loss that the costume is a live symbiote, it's after the symbiote is destroyed in WOSM 1,] it's after Peter broke up with Felicia.

Note: Venom (Vol. 4) #7 and #11 establish that the symbiote erased memories and gave false memories to Brock so it is able to similarly influence Peter. (It also states the symbiote altered his body chemistry so it would read as cancerous, so the chronologies need to be cleaned up. The symbiote was already inhabiting Brock when his doctor told him he had cancer in SSM2 5-FB.)

By combining the Wraith War and Symbiote: KIB, we have the Watcher erasing all concerned's memories of this time period, which explains Black Knight and Monica forgetting about each other between A 255 & 259. The reference to Alistair Smythe as a super-villain needs to be a case of mistaken identity with his father and we also figure he was crippled from the start and was seen walking in ASM Annual 19 thanks to a symbiote if we choose solution 1 or 2.

Addendum: If we move forward after A 261 when Captain Marvel finally returns to Earth, we find Peter again involved with the Black Cat in PPSSM 115-116, that's shortly before WOSM 18 when he starts getting stalked by the symbiote. Maybe the symbiote tried to merge with Peter suppressing his memories of rejecting it before it chose Brock. The next Symbiote Spider-Man mini-series occurs during the Crossroads saga (Hulk 300-312, Oct 84 to Oct 85), whose time frame is coherent with any of the four hypotheses.

The listings below work for solutions 1-3.

ARAGORN
NDEF 137
*SYMSM:KIB 1
*SYMSM:KIB 2
XFOR&C '97

BARON MORDO
DS2 51
*SYMSM:AR 1-BTS
*SYMSM:AR 2-BTS
*SYMSM:AR 3
*SYMSM:AR 4
*SYMSM:AR 5
SECWARSII 7

BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY
SMF2 1-FB
*SYMSM 1-FB
*SYMSM 3
*SYMSM 4
*SYMSM 5
PPSSM 93

BLACK KNIGHT/DANE WHITMAN
?
*SYMSM:KIB 1
*SYMSM:KIB 2
*SYMSM:KIB 3
?

BLACK WIDOW/NATASHA ROMANOFF
DD 208
*SYMSM:AR 1
*SYMSM:AR 5
DD 217

BRANT LEEDS, BETTY
?
*SYMSM:KIB 2
?

CAPTAIN MARVEL II/MONICA RAMBEAU
?
*SYMSM:KIB 3
*SYMSM:KIB 4
*SYMSM:KIB 5
?

COLLECTOR
M/TU@ 7
*SYMSM:KIB 4
*SYMSM:KIB 5
A@ 16-FB

COSMO
NO4 9-FB
*SYMSM:KIB 4
*SYMSM:KIB 5
{NO4 8}

DAYDREAM
IH3 81
*SYMSM:AR 4

DOCTOR STRANGE
IH2 300
*SYMSM:AR 1
*SYMSM:AR 2
*SYMSM:AR 3
*SYMSM:AR 4
*SYMSM:AR 5
IM:LEG 6
...
DS2 68
ABSCRNG:SYMSM-FB
UX 190

ELECTRO/MAX DILLON
1985 6
*SYMSM 3
PM&IF 113

HOBGOBLIN IV/NED LEEDS
From Ned Leeds
WOSM 30 (9 - 13:4)-FB
*SYMSM:AR 1-FB
*SYMSM:AR 1-FB
*SYMSM:AR 2
*SYMSM:AR 3
*SYMSM:AR 4
*SYMSM:AR 5
ASM 257
ASM 258
ASM@ 18
*SYMSM:KIB 1
*SYMSM:KIB 2
PPSSM 103

HUMAN FLY II/RICK DEACON
PPSSM 86
*SYMSM 1-FB
ASM 276

JAMESON, JONAH
*SYMSM 1-FB
...
?
*SYMSM:KIB 1
*SYMSM:KIB 2
?

KANG
M/S-HSECWARS 11
*SYMSM:KIB 1
*SYMSM:KIB 2
*SYMSM:KIB 3
*SYMSM:KIB 4
*SYMSM:KIB 5
SECWARSII 7

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK
PPSSM 92
*SYMSM 2
*SYMSM 3
*SYMSM 4
PPSSM 93

KNULL
T:GOT 6-FB
*SYMSM:KIB 5
V4 3

KRAVEN
KZSAV 21
*SYMSM:AR 1
SMF2 5/2

MISTER E
M/SPOT 9
SYMSM:KIB 1
SYMSM:KIB 2
SYMSM:KIB 3
SYMSM:KIB 4
SYMSM:KIB 5

MYSTERIO/QUENTIN BECK
PPSSM 51
*SYMSM 1-FB
*SYMSM 1
*SYMSM 2
*SYMSM 3
*SYMSM 4
*SYMSM 5
QP 2

NIGHTMARE
IH2 299
*SYMSM:AR 1-BTS
*SYMSM:AR 2-BTS
*SYMSM:AR 3-BTS
*SYMSM:AR 4
*SYMSM:AR 5
WOSM 7

PARKER, MAY
ASM 255
*SYMSM 1
*SYMSM 4
*SYMSM 5
PPSSM 95

ROBERTSON, JOE
?
*SYMSM:KIB 2
?

ROCKET RACCOON
IH2 271
SYMSM:KIB 1
SYMSM:KIB 2
SYMSM:KIB 3
SYMSM:KIB 4
SYMSM:KIB 5
RR 1

SMYTHE, ALISTAIR ALPHONSO
SYMSM:KIB 1
SYMSM:KIB 2
SYMSM:KIB 3
SYMSM:KIB 4
SYMSM:KIB 5

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
SMF2 1
SYMSM 1-FB
SYMSM 1
SYMSM 2
SYMSM 3
SYMSM 4
SYMSM 5
SYMSM:AR 1
SYMSM:AR 2
SYMSM:AR 3
SYMSM:AR 4
SYMSM:AR 5
ASM@ 43
...
?
SYMSM:KIB 1
SYMSM:KIB 2
SYMSM:KIB 3
SYMSM:KIB 4
SYMSM:KIB 5
?

SPOT/JONATHAN OHN
*SYMSM 1-FB
*SYMSM 2
*SYMSM 3
*SYMSM 4
{PPSSM 97}

UATU THE WATCHER
WI? 47
*SYMSM:KIB 1
*SYMSM:KIB 4
*SYMSM:KIB 5
SECWARSII 6

ULICA
*SYMSM:KIB 3
*SYMSM:KIB 4

ULIK
T@ 13
*SYMSM:KIB 3
*SYMSM:KIB 4
T@ 17/3

VENOM/EDDIE BROCK
*SSM2 5-FB move from here
V:DO 2 (1 - 18)
ASM 300 (22:2)-FB
V:DO 2 (19 - 22)
ASM 375 (6:4 - 6:5)-FB
V:LP 3 (14:3 - 14:4)-FB
ASM 375 (6:6 - 6:7)-FB
*ASM 300 (23:3 - 23:4)-FB-BTS (remove BTS)
ASM 300 (24:2)-FB
ASM 300 (24:4)-FB
ASM 300 (24:6)-FB
*SSM2 5-FB (learns he's got cancer - move to here)
V:DO 3 (1:1 - 1:4)

VENOM SYMBIOTE
SMF2 1
*SYMSM 1-FB
*SYMSM 1
*SYMSM 2
*SYMSM 3
*SYMSM 4
*SYMSM 5
*SYMSM:AR 1
*SYMSM:AR 2
*SYMSM:AR 3
*SYMSM:AR 4
*SYMSM:AR 5
ASM@43
...
PPSSM 98
SYMSM 3/2
PPSSM 99
...
?
SYMSM:KIB 1
SYMSM:KIB 2
SYMSM:KIB 3
SYMSM:KIB 4
SYMSM:KIB 5
?

WONG
IH2 299
*SYMSM:AR 1-FB
*SYMSM:AR 5
IM:LEG 6

Revised April 25, 2021 to correct the analysis of SYMSM 3/2. Cf. below.
Last edited by Leoparis on Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by Midnighter »

Re: Symbiote Spider-Man: King in Black

Apart from a panel in the first issue, when changes from civilian clothes to costume when attacked by Ned and the others possessed by Mister E, and in the last, when his mouth is open to drink, it actually seems to me that Peter never shows that he's wearing the symbiote. The symbiote never react to Mister E or Knull.

Couldn't we think that Peter is wearing the "normal" black costume, and that the appearance combined with the "codex" has misled Mister E to the point that he has mistaken it for another symbiote?
In this case it would be a matter of considering the two panels as an artistic error.
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Re: Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by StrayLamb »

Leoparis wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:38 pmI don't know if it's possible to place A 254 before the second part of ASM 258 but I doubt that very much as the King in Black Handbook stated the series took place after Peter had rejected the symbiote costume.
Not really. ASM 258 (11 - 21) is set very early during the Casket of Ancient Winters, followed by A 249, set during the end of the Ancient Winters saga.

I completely agree with the placement for Symbiote Spider-Man 1-5 & Symbiote Spider-Man: Alien Reality 1-5.
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Re: Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by Leoparis »

Midnighter wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:32 am Re: Symbiote Spider-Man: King in Black

Apart from a panel in the first issue, when changes from civilian clothes to costume when attacked by Ned and the others possessed by Mister E, and in the last, when his mouth is open to drink, it actually seems to me that Peter never shows that he's wearing the symbiote. The symbiote never react to Mister E or Knull.

Couldn't we think that Peter is wearing the "normal" black costume, and that the appearance combined with the "codex" has misled Mister E to the point that he has mistaken it for another symbiote?
In this case it would be a matter of considering the two panels as an artistic error.
Well, it's called Symbiote Spider-Man and Mister E keeps referring to Spider-Man as a kin, which he wouldn't do if the symbiote was not there. Peter also comments on his clothes being his alien costume. We have a bit more to contend with than two visual errors. I prefer to wait for the next Symbiote series but I like my theory of the story taking place circa PPTSSM 115-116 before WOSM 18, involving a second period when he was unknowingly possessed by the symbiote because that's what works best for Felicia, Captain Marvel, Black Knight and Alistair Smythe. If that proves impossible, I hope one of my three other hypotheses will work. Finding as many as four distinct hypotheses was miraculous.
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Re: Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by Col_Fury »

The intent is clearly that Spider-Man's suit is the symbiote. I mean, it's called "Symbiote Spider-Man," after all. :wink:

As noted, Alistair debuted after Spider-Man stopped wearing the alien suit. We know this because of the saga of Aunt May's pink hat:

WOSM 1-2 (definitely gets rid of symbiote, gets Aunt May a pink hat)
ASM@ 19 (Alistair appears, puts a tracer in the pink hat)

So what to do? Here's a suggestion from former MCP regular Jeph York:
JephYork wrote:I think Alistaire Smythe's appearances in Symbiote SM: King in Black actually *can* come before his debut in ASM Annual #19.

Currently, the evidence is:

- In ASM Annual #19, Spidey appears not to know of Smythe's existence -- and Smythe says "we've never met." Smythe then gets electrocuted. ASM #291 reveals that he became crippled because of this, and shows him as thinner.

- In SSM:KIB #1, Spidey knows of Smythe's existence and calls him "the Spider-Slayer guy". Smythe is crippled and thinner.

Seems cut and dry. But what if...Smythe was crippled and thin *before* ASM Annual #19 -- then he briefly gained weight and got better to appear in ASM Annual #19 -- and his electrocution in that issue reverted him to his previous status quo?

And what if...the dialogue in ASM Annual #19 that claims Spidey and Smythe have never met, could be re-interpreted?

If so, Smythe's story would go like this:

1) Prior to ASM #258, the wheelchair-bound Alistaire Smythe, in an as-yet-unseen story, followed in his father's footsteps and did something Spider-Slayer-related. He got arrested and sent to Ravencroft, and Spidey now knows him anecdotally as "the Spider-Slayer guy."

2) The events of SSM:KIB #1 happen. Perhaps because of Mister E's presence, Smythe does not retain his memories of fighting Spidey in this issue.

3) Spidey parts ways with the symbiote in ASM #258.

4) Smythe is released from Ravencroft off-panel. He invents cybernetic implants and regains the use of his legs. (SSM:KIB #1 says he is working on this exact type of invention.) He gains weight and gets hired by the Kingpin.

5) The events of ASM Annual #19 happen. Smythe is electrocuted, shorting out his implants and leaving him in a worse state than before.

Spider-Man has two lines in #19 that imply he's never heard of Smythe:

a) When Kingpin drops the name, Spidey says "But Smythe is dead, isn't he?" This implies that Spidey thinks Kingpin means *Alphonso* Smythe, and that he's unaware that *Alistaire* Smythe exists. But: (1) maybe Spidey just forgot about Alistaire briefly, or (2) maybe Spidey thinks Alistaire is also dead. (Events in SSM:KIB #2-5 could give him this impression, who knows.)

b) When Spidey catches up to Smythe in the Spider-Slayer, he says "You're not Smythe! Who are you?" -- and Smythe replies "I'm Smythe II! We've never met!" Perhaps Spidey's question is because the **technology** is unfamiliar, not the pilot. ("This isn't any of Smythe's work I've seen before! Who are you?") And perhaps Smythe's response is because he has forgotten their earlier fight, due to Mister E's influence.

Note that, after that brief exchange of dialogue, Spidey never ponders anything like "Smythe had a son?" This fits with SSM:KIB #1's establishing that Spidey already knew about him.

6) in ASM #291, Smythe's next appearance after ASM Annual #19, he is once again gaunt and crippled. He blames Spider-Man for crippling him, which would *not* be true if he was previously crippled before Annual #19. BUT, #291 also establishes that he's in extremely bad shape now -- he can't take nourishment normally and needs special injections. Perhaps THIS is what he blames Spidey for. Not crippling him, but for putting him in an even WORSE shape than his first paralysis.
He followed up to add:
JephYork wrote:And the fact that the Watcher wiped Spidey’s memory at the end of issue #5 makes point 2 even more plausible...!
So basically, Leoparis' "confused with Alistair's father" option.

I haven't looked into Monica's situation. Is she stated to be an Avenger here? Or is she just helping out Black Knight? Can we squint and say she was auditioning for the Avengers or something?
-Daron Jensen
Leoparis
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Re: Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by Leoparis »

Captain Marvel as an Avenger is not a problem. Rather the problem is Captain Marvel and Black Knight both active Avengers and knowing each other.

Timeline:
Avengers 226 adventure in Avalon with inactive Avenger Black Knight. Black Knight revives in Garrett Castle (England).
ASM Annual 14 Captain Marvel origin
Avengers 227 Captain Marvel is recruited
ASM 258 early part of Casket of Winters
Avengers 249 end of Casket of Winters
DS 68-69 Dr Strange cures Whitman of curse
Avengers 252-254 Vision starts his world takeover by sending Captain Marvel light-days away from Earth. He captures former Avenger Dane Whitman when he shows up on the doorstep.
Avengers 255 Avengers contact Monica in space to tell her Vision sent her on a fool's errand. Dane has no idea who she is. Then she gets stranded in another galaxy before she can return to Earth.
ASM 269-270 Spidey vs Firelord
Avengers 259 Firelord helps Avengers finding Monica. Introductions are made between Dane and Monica.
Avengers 261 Avengers return to Earth with Monica.

I partly agree with Midnighter that we can look at the period when he was wearing his black clothes-costume but it still needs to be the symbiote.

The next series will be called Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads and deals with Hulk in the Crossroads saga (IH 300-312, Oct 84 - Oct 85). As shown below that can extend from before ASM 258 to after Avengers return to Earth in A 261.

Extract from the 1984-1985 timeline:
Incredible Hulk 297-300
Savage Hulk 5-6
Amazing Spider-Man 254
...
Avengers 261 (1 - 11:2)
Secret Wars II 4 (14:2 - 17:4)
Incredible Hulk 309-312


There is a one-shot I missed, Absolute Carnage: Symbiote Spider-Man, which reveals who is the character in the second story in Symbiote: Spider-Man 3. It's not Brock but the tourist from PPTSSM 99. He sees the symbiote inhabiting some unknown host. The one-shot shows what happened to the character just before he is possessed and after the symbiote released him. The White Rabbit causes his son's death and in turn he causes a homicide while attempting to get revenge on her. He ends up in prison. In the present Carnage kills him under the eyes of White Rabbit.

CAPTAIN AMERICA
CA 301
ABSCRNG:SYMSM-FB
A 251

CARNAGE
(during Absolute Carnage)

DOCTOR STRANGE
DS2 68
ABSCRNG:SYMSM-FB
UX 190

ELKHART, LEONARD
SYMSM 3/2
ABSCRNG:SYMSM (3)-FB
{PPSSM 99}
PPSSM 100
ABSCRNG:SYMSM (4 - 24)-FB
ABSCRNG:SYMSM

VENOM SYMBIOTE
PPSSM 98
SYMSM 3/2
PPSSM 99
PPSSM 100

THOR
MTU 148
ABSCRNG:SYMSM-FB
MGN 17

WHITE RABBIT
M/TU 131
ABSCRNG:SYMSM-FB
SSM 185
...
(during Absolute Carnage)


Post scriptum: As a bonus, here are notes about the Wraith War, Captain Marvel's and Black Knight's chronologies made to see if the eclipse in KIB:SYMSM could be the same eclipse.
While some corrections will be necessary, I shall keep options open for KIB:SYMSM.
Spoiler:
Rom 61
Black disc forms

Rom 62
Rom recruits Forge

Rom 63
space neutralizer built

Rom 64
Wraithworld comes out of the black disc

Rom 65
Earth heroes (incl. Black Knight and Captain Marvel), vs Dire Wraiths
23:2 Wraithworld gone
23:3 sun freed

Rom 66
aftermath Captain Marvel (Black Knight unseen)


Symbiote KIB 1
solar eclipse

Symbiote KIB 2
solar eclipse

Symbiote KIB 5
dark circle eclipsing the sun destroyed


Note: Rom 65-66 needs to occur before A 252 (while Captain Marvel is still on Earth). What about the presence of Black Knight? First, the one we see has got the wrong helmet so he might just be there as an international hero (like Arabian Knight, Blitzkrieg, Captain Britain, Peregrine, Shamrock or the Soviet Super-Soldiers). Indeed all these international characters are missing in Rom 66 and so is Black Knight. After Vision tries to take over the world in A 254, there is a change of lineup, Vision & Scarlet Witch are replaced by Wasp & Black Knight (and Captain Marvel is absent because stranded in space). The Avengers lineup in ROM 65 is clearly the earlier lineup. The presence of Black Knight confused the chronologists, making them think this was circa A 255, after he joined.

He might also be a hologram. In A 254 Vision casts realistic and talking holograms of Captain Marvel plus non-active Avengers Thor & She-Hulk). (That excuse can be used for any other discrepancies such as the old Captain Britain & Moondragon costumes, as well as Storm's appearance in Avengers Academy 24-FB, etc.)
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads 1
Moondark (from Ghost Rider 59)
Karnilla (from Thor 344)
Jonah Jameson (?between ASM 260 and WOSM 2)
Joe Robertson (?somewhere between QP 2 and WOSM 2)
Chameleon (between ASM 186 & ASM 307-FB)
Spider-Man (?)
Venom Symbiote (?)
Black Cat (?) as girlfriend
United States President bts
Betty Brant (somewhere between ASM 260 and PPSSM 101)
Hulk (somewhere between H 300 and 309)

Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads 2
Black Cat
Doctor Strange (from ?IH2 301)
Moondark
Spider-Man
Venom Symbiote
Hulk
Karnilla the Norn Queen
Moon-Boy (Earth 78411) (after Godzilla 22 & before FANGELS 4) (M/M:DDINO, placed ca TTA 81 for Hulk, should occur with 1966 stories, before GZILL 21)
Devil Dinosaur (Earth 78411) (after Godzilla 22 & before FANGELS 4) (M/M:DDINO, placed ca TTA 81 for Hulk, should occur with 1966 stories, before GZILL 21)

Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads 3
Moon-Boy (Earth 78411) (before Fallen Angels 4)
Devil Dinosaur (Earth 78411) (before Fallen Angels 4)
Spider-Man
Venom Symbiote
Hulk (Banner) transforms into the Guilt Hulk
Karnilla the Norn Queen
Skuld of the Norns (after T 348)
Urd of the Norns (after T 348)
Verdandi of the Norns (after T 348)
Doctor Strange
Black Cat
Kro (from IH@ 6)

Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads 4
Zuras (from IM@ 6)
Thena (after A 248 and before E2 1)
Ikaris (after A 248)
Makkari (between A 248 & E2 1)
Kro (before E2 2-FB)
Spider-Man
Venom Symbiote
Hulk (Banner) temporarily transformed into the Guilt Hulk
Black Cat
Black Talon (between {A 152} & WCA2 1-BTS)
Eson the Searcher in FB
Skuld of the Norns
Urd of the Norns
Verdandi of the Norns
Karnilla the Norn Queen
Doctor Strange

Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads 5
Karnilla the Norn Queen (next in T 350)
Spider-Man (before ASM 258 page 11)
Venom Symbiote (before ASM 258 page 11)
Hulk (Banner) (The Hulk is articulate so closer to IH2 308 than 301)
Ikaris (before E2 1)
Black Cat (before ASM 258 page 11)
Doctor Strange (ca SAVH2 5-6 and IH2 305)
Skuld of the Norns (before NMSE)
Urd of the Norns (before NMSE)
Verdandi of the Norns (before NMSE)
Zuras (before E2 9)
Odin (after T 348)


During the Crossroads Hulk gradually goes from growling beast to more articulate so I need to review those issues to see how to arrange SAVH2 5-6 and this series.
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Re: Symbiote Spider-Man

Post by Nausiated »

I was puzzling out the placement of Crossroads for Spider-Man. It's pretty tight.

Based on publication dates: Amazing Spider-Man #258 (when Peter gets rid of the symbiote) was published at the same date as Incredible Hulk #301. The Crossroads limited series starts with Hulk as a mindless brute but by the end of it, he's regained some of his language skills. Hulk starts being able to talk again in Incredible Hulk #307-308 when he befriends the Puffball Collective.

I think there is a presumption that because the Hulk doesn't start talking until issue #5 of Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads that he was incapable of doing so back at issue #1. However, I choose to to look at it that the reason why the Hulk isn't talking to start is because he was in a fit of rage. This would put it in line with issue #307-308 of Incredible Hulk because the Hulk had limited language skills and when he went into a rage he wasn't saying much anyway.

I think placing Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads between Hulk #308 and 309 makes sense. In Crossroads, Banner was brought back by the Norn Stone but went back into hibernation when it was taken back. Which paved the way the appearances of the Triad. Perhaps Crossroads was a contribution to the eventual return of Banner's mind during the last few issues of the Crossroads arc.

As for where this fits with Spider-Man continuity, I think there is some flexibility between Peter's appearance in Incredible Hulk #300 and when he gets rid of the symbiote in Amazing Spider-Man #258. According to the Chronology for Spidey, that could slot it anywhere between Amazing #254 through 258.

#254: Spider-Man battles Jack O'Lantern while Jack tries to steal Hobgolbin's battle wagon.
#255: Spider-Man rescues the Cat from Red Ghost and his Super-Apes.
#256-257: Spider-Man battles the Puma.

However, issue #255 raises an interesting point: In that issue, Peter wonders what Felicia is up to because he hasn't seen her in a bit. The Chronology for the Black Cat points to her appearing in Spectacular #92-95 (when she helps Spidey stop the resurrection of Silvermane) Then appearing in Amazing Spider-Man #256. Peter's appearance in Incredible Hulk #300 predates Spectacular issue #91.

To me that leaves only two places that Crossroads #1-5 could fit: Before Amazing Spider-Man #256 or in that gap between pages 10 and 11 of issue #258. My gut tells me that putting it before #256 would probably be the better placement because the pages in-between issue #10 and 11 of #256 is already getting pretty crowded.

I'd argue that it takes place before. In Crossroads #1, the Black Cat is present but out of sight during Spider-Man's battle with the Chameleon and later she only steps in to fight Moondark when the magician uses his powers to turn the police against Spider-Man. While it's not outright stated (like at all) as to what Felicia was doing on the sidelines, one could assume she was taking pictures for Peter, which was what she was doing around this period. In fact, the Puma clash in Amazing Spider-Man #256 was the last time Felicia took photos of Peter when he was wearing the symbiote. I think it's safe to assume that the Crossroads mini-series takes place before Amazing Spider-Man #256.

The only real implication is that the original Crossroads story-arc in Incredible Hulk carries on well after Peter gave up the symbiote. It was pretty deep into Secret Wars II territory at the end. So getting the two to line up publication wise is impossible.

However, I'd argue that the Crossroads dimension is a place outside of normal time and space. I think it's reasonable to assume that time flows differently there. Bill Mantlo's narrative often makes a point to reinforce the idea that the Crossroads dimension doesn't adhere to the normal rules of time and space. I think by that reference alone, we can fit the Symbiote Spider-Man into the Crossroads dimension and without having to budge the Hulk's timeline at all.

Based on the above, I'd like to recommend the following placements:

Spider-Man:
----------------

IH2 300 - Peter is present when the Hulk is banished to the crossroads
ASM 662/3-FB
ASM 254 - Spidey battles Jack O' Lantern
PPSSM 92 - Spidey and the Black Cat battle the Answer
M/TU 142 -Peter teams up with Captain Marvel
M/TU 143 - Peter teams up with Starfox
ASM 255 - Spidey fights Red Ghost alone. Black Cat absent.
M/TU@ 7 - Spider-Man goes to Canada, helps Alpha Flight battle the Plodex. Black Cat makes a brief appearance when Peter gets back home.
SMF2 1-FB - Symbiote takes Peter for a joyride, fights the Sandman.
SMF2 1 "" "" ""
PPSSM 93 - Rematch with the Answer, fail to stop him from stealing Silvermane's corpse. Black Cat is present during the battle.
M/TU 144 - Spidey teams up with Moon Knight. No Black Cat.
PPSSM 94 - Spider-Man and Black Cat investigate the Silvermane theft, clash with Cloak and Dagger.
PPSSM 95 - "" "" "" ""
M/TU 145 - Spider-Man teams-up with Iron Man. No Black Cat.
KOP2 6 - Cameo of Spider-Man he fights a time displaced spider creature of some kind. No Black Cat
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #1
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #2
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #3
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #4
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #5
ASM 256- Spider-Man's fight with the Puma starts here. Black Cat is around to take pictures.

Black Cat
------------

PPSSM 93
PPSSM 94
PPSSM 95
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #1
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #2
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #3
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #4
Symbiote Spider-Man: Crossroads #5
ASM 256
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