Hashing out X-Men post utopa-pre regenesis (now expanded)

[Frans]

Hey Jason, first I have to say it was not my intention to criticize your tremendous effort to make this timeline. Much appreciated and I admire your persistence.

ACC is harder to crack then Fear Itself, for me at least, because as I said I don't read Avengers or FF much. But still here are my explanations why I think that ACC should move down to just before Fear Itself. I'm not a believer of the fact that Human Torch was alive in Children's Crusade.

Doom joins the FF after Children's Crusade. That happens right after the death of the Human Torch.

Is there no space between the last issues of Fantastic Four #587-588 and FF #1? I thought there was some space or at least the Fear Itself crossover...

He appears in the last issue of Fear Itself having already joined.

Who is in the last issue of Fear Itself? Doom? Not in my Fear Itself issues

"Three" the Death of the Torch is a small window between Daken and X-23 issues which spin out of Wolverine goes to hell.

The Human Torch appears in Daken #3 and #4. Empire Act 1 (part of Wolverine goes to Hell) and Empire Act 2 (not part of). This is supposed to be before his "death". I don't understand the small window.

The Avengers Annuals have to take place before Fear itself and from the description by (Spider-Man) they take place before Children's Crusade because nobody knows the Scarlet Witch is back.

Ok I know that it is stated in the Annuals that it takes before Fear Itself, but the same goes for ACC, there it is stated that it happened after Fear Itself. One of the two is incorrect, I presume. Taking into the account the aggressive behavior of Wonder Man towards the Avengers in the Annuals + his disappearance at the end of Avengers Annual. And also his willingness to cooperate with the Avengers in ACC. I would say first ACC and later the Annuals. Best is to place them after Fear Itself, because that then also explains the absence of Thor in ACC.

Why do we have to move those stories up? Those three arcs stay together for the reasons you explained earlier. If we have to, I'll adjust. Are the Lights in Curse of the Mutants? I can't remember right off the top of my head or is that story mentioned in the issues you want me to move?

The three arcs have to stay together indeed. The Lights don't appear in Curse of the Mutants. It's a bit unbelievable to have the Curse of the Mutants, Chaos War and Children's Crusade before Cyclops goes looking for the Lights. The discovery of new mutants is happening at the end of Second Coming. What reason do you have to move this so far down in the timeline?

I also have faith in reaching a point where we can place ACC

[Jason Doty]

Hey Frans, I didn't take offense to any of your posts. I'm happy you help out brother. This is a team effort.

Frans wrote

Is there no space between the last issues of Fantastic Four #587-588 and FF #1? I thought there was some space or at least the Fear Itself crossover...

A matter of days, Johnny dies, the FF continue on adding Spider-Man to the FF adopting new uniforms. The ones we see in Fear Itself. So FF starts before Fear Itself.

Who is in the last issue of Fear Itself? Doom? Not in my Fear Itself issues

Sorry, Hulk is split from banner at the end of Fear itself, Done by Doom between pages in Flashbacks shown in Incredible Hulk and I think he is wearing hiss FF uniform. Meaning he has already joined the FF. So FF 1-? is before Fear Itself.

The Human Torch appears in Daken #3 and #4. Empire Act 1 (part of Wolverine goes to Hell) and Empire Act 2 (not part of). This is supposed to be before his "death". I don't understand the small window.

Yes, then Daken teams up with X-23 in collision and I think the next X-23 arc has the FF with new Uniforms, one again before Fear Itself. (So small window for death of Human Torch and founding of FF)

Ok I know that it is stated in the Annuals that it takes before Fear Itself, but the same goes for ACC, there it is stated that it happened after Fear Itself. One of the two is incorrect, I presume. Taking into the account the aggressive behavior of Wonder Man towards the Avengers in the Annuals + his disappearance at the end of Avengers Annual. And also his willingness to cooperate with the Avengers in ACC. I would say first ACC and later the Annuals. Best is to place them after Fear Itself, because that then also explains the absence of Thor in ACC.

Thor not being present in an adventure, doesn't mean it can't take place in a certain place, and the Annual have to take place before A:CC if the characters don't know Scarlet Witch is back and because of FF, A:CC happens before Fear Itself.

The three arcs have to stay together indeed. The Lights don't appear in Curse of the Mutants. It's a bit unbelievable to have the Curse of the Mutants, Chaos War and Children's Crusade before Cyclops goes looking for the Lights. The discovery of new mutants is happening at the end of Second Coming. What reason do you have to move this so far down in the timeline?

I'll move these Three arcs up before Chaos War, because I agree with your logic behind that and I don't think it will cause any problems chronologically. Moving everything to figure out A:CC did mess me up a bit. If we nail down FF and Cap, I think we nailed A:CC.

[Jason Doty]

Just curious, Did Steve temporarily take up the role of Cap for Bucky's trial? I'm spotty on Captain America issues

[Chris McCarver]

I posed that possibility up-thread, Jason, but IIRC Steve, at least in the CA series in and of itself, never took up the Cap duties while Bucky was on trial or imprisoned in Russia. It's a possibility that Steve might have put on the old togs for the sake of leading the Avengers through the events of Children's Crusade, but after reading CA 615.1 and CA 616 (which directly follow Bucky's incarceration), he seems very reluctant to take up the mantle again, even temporarily. Still, it's a possibility. He did have access to the shield as of CA 615.1, retrieving it from wannabe-Cap David Rickford after rescuing him from AIM.

[Jason Doty]

Chris, In what issue did Bucky return and Cap give the shield back to him after retrieving it from the wanna-be. He might have been reluctant, but there could be a chance he decided to don the old threads until Bucky returned and resumed the mantel.

Daken reads an article about the trial of Bucky before heading to Madripoor.

Where are the breaks in Captain America for Children's Crusade to occur if it had to happen around that time and before Fear Itself ?

[Chris McCarver]

Apologies if I'm going off what little I've read without being presently able to check books, Jason (not home due to an internet outage, and anyone feel free to chime in as my memory's a bit spotty), but if memory serves, Bucky was actually stripped of the Captain America mantle immediately upon his escape from Russian captivity (I believe in CA 619) when his reputation was deemed by Obama to have been too tarnished what with the trial, his imprisonment, and his escape... and yet he shows up in FI 3 with the uniform and shield. I can't immediately recall the circumstances under which Bucky was allowed to take up the mantle again pre-FI 3.

EDIT: So at least as far as I can recall, Bucky was shield-deprived steadily between his imprisonment and his appearance in FI 3.

[Jason Doty]

Here's my my latest suggestion before I hopefully move Children's Crusade one final time.

I've adjusted for Stature, Doom, Captain America, and now finally Gambit.

I think this will come between Chaos Theorie in X-23 and Age of X.

Gambit has to be back from his adventure with X-23. The Trial of Captain America happens before the Daken issues were he reads the paper, with Gulag happening ruffly the same time he's taking over Madripoor, Steve takes up the mantel (part-time) until he returns between CA 619 and Fear Itself, with Steve returning the Shield and mantel to him behind the scenes. The last pages of FF 1 and no.2 happen after Age of X but before Fear Itself, allowing FF to take place after Children's Crusade but before the Incredible Hulk fb's toward the end of fear itself.

I think this will address everyone's issues. So the only assumptions to make are Iron Man's armor is an art error and Doom's brain damages regressed and then reasserted itself.

Does this work for the majority of you? (Frans, Col. Fury, Paul, Somebody, Chris, Spider-Man, and anyone else that wants to jump in)

[Frans]

Excellent Jason!

I do agree. I'm missing the "much talked about" Annuals of Avengers and New Avengers, with Wonder Man. Is that on purpose?

[Jason Doty]

I haven't added the Annuals in yet, but will look at them next. for now I'll update what I already have up and see if it sits well with everyone.

[Frans]

Hey Jason, fair enough. So now we'd fine tune everything we already have? Because a few series are still missing from the list?

[Jason Doty]

Hey Frans,
I added a couple of small things this morning. If you have anything that your 99% positive about, and want me to add it let me know. I don't mind place setting things for further discussion as we go.

That goes for anyone who wants me to add something. When were dealing with such an intertwined area all help is appreciated. I pick up probably 95% of the Marvel titles. I've always collected mainly X-Men, but I pick up anything with a member (former or current) in it and buy all arcs that any X-Men have anything to do with.

[PunyBanner]

I don't see the X-Men: To Serve and Protect four issue mini-series in the chronology.

[Jason Doty]

Hey PunyBanner,

While I believe they come around the Protect and Serve arc in X-Men, I've held off because of all the different villains the X-Men usually don't face. Mr. Negative's appearances in Amazing Spider-Man will effect the X-Dude's story. Do you have any suggestions where to place these?

[Frans]

Just as Puny Banner said, I was thinking of that LS X-Men to Serve and Protect.

Another series which is missing is Heroes for Hire #1-8 and #12, which takes place in this time span.

[Jason Doty]

Frans,
What I was getting at is that if you give me a starting point, we can add from there. I know there is a lot of stuff missing. I've been adding in a little at a time based on the different storylines. If you or anyone else is 99% sure that title "a" comes between title "b," I'll add it in right away based on your suggestion. Otherwise, its gonna take a while.

I was just looking at the Serve and Protect arc in X-Men and the limited series and feel that I need to move it up even further from where I have it, but that is gonna be based on everything else in the Marvel U.