Placement of FF 36 FB (and ST 118 too)

[Jopili]

In FF 36-FB we see Paste-Pot Pete and Sandman escaping from jail and rescuing the Wizard floating in the sky just after the adventure against the Human Torch told in ST 118.

So, ST 118 and FF 36-FB are strictly connected in sequence (it's a matter of hours).

The problem is: during the escape, Pete finds his (new) costume closer to the penitentiary, and we know the new costume first appeared in ST 124-FB.

So, for the Human Torch timeline, ST 118 (tied to FF 36-FB) is logically subsequent to ST 124-FB.


I think this is the probably global sequence:
---
ST 124-FB = Paste-Pot Pete wears a new costume (and hides a copy of it closer to the penitentiary)
ST 124 = Human Torch defeats Paste-Pot Pete - under arrest at the end of the story
ASM@ 1 = Sandman joins the Sinister Six - under arrest at the end of the story
ST 118 = Human Torch defeats Wizard - Wizard floating in the sky
FF 36-FB = Paste-Pot Pete and Sandman escapes from jail and rescue Wizard floating
ASM 18/ASM 19 = Sandman, free, reappears and fights Spider-Man
FF 36 = Wizard, Sandman and Paste-Pot Pete join The Frightful Four
---

This hypothesis does not affect Wizard and Paste-Pot Pete timelines, but does Human Torch and Sandman's ones.


SANDMAN
-------
ASM@ 1 (with Sinister Six - arrested)
FF 36-FB [Move here] (escapes from jail - saves Wizard)
ASM 18 (fights Spider-Man)
ASM 19
FF 36-FB [Move from here]
FF 36 (joins the Frightful Four)


HUMAN TORCH
-----------
ST 118 [Move from here]
ST 119-FB
ST 119
FF 24
FF 25
FF 26
M/CP 18/4-FB
UTSM 13
ST 120
ST 121
FF 27
ST 122
DD 2
FF 28
ST 123
MARVELS 2 (6 - 8)
ST 123
FF 29
ST 124
FF 30
ST 125
ASM@ 1
ST 118 [Move here] (defeats Wizard)
ST 126
MARVELS 2
ST3-FB-FB
ASM 17
ASM 18
ST 127
ASM 19
FF@ 2/3
FF 31
TOS 56/2
FF 32
UTSM '97
FF 33
ST 128
FF 34
ASM 21
ASM 8/2
UTSM '96
ST 129
ST 129-FB-BTS
ST 129
A 13
FF 35
ST 130
FF 36

[Michael]

Olshevsky reached a similar conclusion in the third issue of his Fantastic Four Index:

The flashback in this story to the escape of Paste-Pot Pete and the Sandman from prison, and the subsequent discovery of the Wizard floating helplessly in the air, takes place a few weeks before the actual formation of the Frightful Four, in the interval between issues #33 and 34. At the time of his discovery, the Wizard had been aloft for at most a day or two following his battle against the Human Torch in the Torch story in STRANGE TALES #118. Any longer than that, and the Wizard would have been carried out of the atmosphere entirely and would have suffocated. This means that the Torch story in STRANGE TALES #118 takes place considerably later than the story in STRANGE TALES #119, and in fact it chronologically follows the Torch and Thing story in STRANGE TALES #128.

Does anyone know why we disregarded Olshevsky's placement?

[Paul Bourcier]

I don't know if there was a conscious decision to override Olshevsky's placement. I see no reason not to place ST 118 where he suggested -- after ST 128 -- which is a bit later than Joili's placement. FF 36-FB would be right after that.

Sandman's chronology wouldn't change AFAIK. Given the later placement of ST 118, Sandman would be in FF 36-FB after ASM 19. (actually, between ASM 19 and FF 36-FB, I have Sandman in ASM@ 37, which occurs a few days after A 11. And, darnit, that reference isn't in the Avengers Index as a Cap appearance following A 11.)

[DotStinks]

This topic was previously discussed in 2010.

Strange Tales 118 is currently placed immediately after UTSM 6 for the Human Torch, in which the Wizard is left floating around in the sky. In FF 36-FB, he is saved by Paste-Pot Pete (in his new costume created after A 6 & ST 124!) and Sandman (who is placed between UTSM 3 & ASM@ 1). To add on, the Torch references Wizard's recent defeat in ST 127, which takes place between ASM 18 & 19, and the flashback must occur after A 6. In order for everything to line up narratively and chronologically, I think I figured out a solution:

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
...
UTSM 6
ST 118 <— MOVE FROM HERE
...
ST 124
FF 30
ST 125
ASM@ 1
ST 126
ST 118 <— MOVE TO HERE
MARVELS 2 (19 - 20)
ST3-FB-FB
ASM 17
ASM 18
ST 127
ASM 19
...

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
...
FF 23
ST 118 <— MOVE FROM HERE
...
FF 30
ST 125
SMU 18-FB
ASM@ 1
ST 126
ST 118 <— MOVE TO HERE
MARVELS 2 (19 - 20)
CA:MOOT 5
ASM 18
ST 127
...

SANDMAN II/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO"
...
FF 36-FB <— MOVE FROM HERE
ASM@ 1
FF 36-FB <— MOVE TO HERE
ASM 18
ASM 19
ASM@ 37
FF 36
...

THING II/MAJ. BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
...
FF 23
ST 118 <— MOVE FROM HERE
...
ST 124
FF 30
ST 125
ASM@ 1
ST 126
ST 118 <— MOVE TO HERE
MARVELS 2 (19 - 20)
ST3-FB-FB
ASM 18
ST 127
...

TRAPSTER/PETER PETRUSKI
...
FF 36-FB <— MOVE FROM HERE
A 6
ST 124-FB
ST 124
FF 36-FB <— MOVE TO HERE
FF 36
...

Wizard's chronology remains untouched.

PS from October: Having the sequence of UTSM 3 > ASM@ 1 > FF 36-FB works well for Sandman. At the end of UTSM 3, Sandman is a sand monster that dissipates across the city, and in ASM@ 1, he is free and has reconstituted himself back into human form. He's put back in jail in that issue, lining up with his breakout in FF 36-FB. My proposal now doesn't require the assumption of having Sandman be arrested again before forming the Sinister Six.

[StrayLamb]

Strange Tales 118 is currently placed immediately after UTSM 6 for the Human Torch, in which the Wizard is left floating around in the sky. In FF 36-FB, he is saved by Paste-Pot Pete (in his new costume created after A 6 & ST 124!) and Sandman (who is placed between UTSM 3 & ASM@ 1). To add on, the Torch references Wizard's recent defeat in ST 127, which takes place between ASM 18 & 19, and the flashback must occur after A 6.

Well, in ST 127, Wizard's "recent defeat" is actually said to be "last year," however such luminaries as Olshevsky & Bourcier both agree that ST 118 needs to be placed later, out of sequence.

In my opinion, Jopili came up with the best placement, immediately prior to ST 126 for Torch..

I think this is the probably global sequence:
---
ST 124-FB = Paste-Pot Pete wears a new costume (and hides a copy of it closer to the penitentiary)
ST 124 = Human Torch defeats Paste-Pot Pete - under arrest at the end of the story
ASM@ 1 = Sandman joins the Sinister Six - under arrest at the end of the story
ST 118 = Human Torch defeats Wizard - Wizard floating in the sky
FF 36-FB = Paste-Pot Pete and Sandman escapes from jail and rescue Wizard floating
ASM 18/ASM 19 = Sandman, free, reappears and fights Spider-Man
FF 36 = Wizard, Sandman and Paste-Pot Pete join The Frightful Four
---

This hypothesis does not affect Wizard and Paste-Pot Pete timelines, but does Human Torch and Sandman's ones.

[DotStinks]

Well, in ST 127, Wizard's "recent defeat" is actually said to be "last year," however such luminaries as Olshevsky & Bourcier both agree that ST 118 needs to be placed later, out of sequence.

In my opinion, Jopili came up with the best placement, immediately prior to ST 126 for Torch..

I think this is the probably global sequence:
---
ST 124-FB = Paste-Pot Pete wears a new costume (and hides a copy of it closer to the penitentiary)
ST 124 = Human Torch defeats Paste-Pot Pete - under arrest at the end of the story
ASM@ 1 = Sandman joins the Sinister Six - under arrest at the end of the story
ST 118 = Human Torch defeats Wizard - Wizard floating in the sky
FF 36-FB = Paste-Pot Pete and Sandman escapes from jail and rescue Wizard floating
ASM 18/ASM 19 = Sandman, free, reappears and fights Spider-Man
FF 36 = Wizard, Sandman and Paste-Pot Pete join The Frightful Four
---

This hypothesis does not affect Wizard and Paste-Pot Pete timelines, but does Human Torch and Sandman's ones.

Yeah, that works too. I just placed ST 118 after 126 so Paste-Pot Pete is in prison longer. "Last year" just needs to be ignored.