DPOOL5 17, A+X 12, A:Endless Wartime flashbacks

[Leoparis]

I wanted to take note of a number of flashbacks appearing in previews:

Deadpool 17: Captain America & Bucky in 1945 in a concentration camp.

A + X 12: Beast and Wonder Man partying circa 1978. This looks like a redrawn Perez panel.

Avengers Endless Wartime: 1944 flashback with Captain America flying with the RAF in Norway.

[Leoparis]

Deadpool 17: Captain America & Bucky in 1945 in a concentration camp. This is dated April and takes place after the camp was freed.
There are fbs of Cap in a concentration camp in
CA 237 and 241
and
FS:IM (8 - 9) seems to take place during CA 237 (I think it's unnecessary to posit a second raid on a concentration camp)
In CA 237 and FS IM he attacks the camp. In CA 241 he leads a prisoner outside.

So I propose the following:
CA 237-FB Cap charges the barbed wire fence with his motorbike
FS:IM (8 - 9)-FB As his motorbike crashes the fence, Cap jumps from it
CA 237-FB Cap frees prisoners
CA 241-FB He leads Anna Kappelbaum out
Deadpool 17 He leaves the camp

Avengers Endless Wartime: 1944 flashback with Captain America flying with the RAF in Norway. During WWII there were no raids to Norway between April 1943 and May 1945. There's a mention of Zemo ("Our spies say one Dr Heinrich Zemo may be there. I'd like a personal word with that man.") meaning that it takes place before their first encounter except...
This sentence "We're helping Uncle Joe [the Russians] take [Finnmark] back from Jerry [The Germans]" puts this story in October 1944, which is a bit late for a first encounter with Zemo (their first encounter, Medusa Effect, is said to occur in Jan 1943).

[Russ Chappell]

There's a mention of Zemo ("Our spies say one Dr Heinrich Zemo may be there. I'd like a personal word with that man.") meaning that it takes place before their first encounter except...

I'm not sure you can definitively draw that conclusion from that quote. I can picture myself saying, "I'd like a personal word with that man" about someone I've met at some point in the past.

[Leoparis]

There's a mention of Zemo ("Our spies say one Dr Heinrich Zemo may be there. I'd like a personal word with that man.") meaning that it takes place before their first encounter except...

I'm not sure you can definitively draw that conclusion from that quote. I can picture myself saying, "I'd like a personal word with that man" about someone I've met at some point in the past.

It's the first sentence "Our spies say one Dr Heinrich Zemo" which seems to imply he doesn't know him.

[Leoparis]

Captain America: Living Legend
A note says this takes place before Captain America #10, 2013 (so it has to take place before #1 as well)

Bavarian Alps April 1945
The landscape is covered with snow and it's snowing. "The Fuhrer is besieged in Berlin."
US troops meet Russian troops and reach a secret rocket site, where they capture the rocket scientist.

Real history notes: The battle of Berlin lasted from 20 April to 2 May. After the batlle of Seelow heights (16-19 April) Russian troops encircled the city before they started to shell it on 20 April. The first encounter of Allied troops was on 26 April 1945 in the Elbe (not in the Bavarian Alps). The capture of scientists actually began after May 8 1945.

All those events occur after Cap's disappearance on 18 April 1945 (per What If? 4). So I'd place the fb at the latest possible date in April just before Cap's final mission (whether that was on the 18th or later--personally I'd decide that the official reading the date in WI? 4 misread "28").

CA@ 13 (19:1 - 19:4)-FB (end of the mission in Red Skull's bunker-- if Berlin is shelled, it should be after after the 20th)
CA:LL 1-FB
[CA:MOOT 1 (1 - 9)] (04/45) The briefing in Leipzig for the Zemo mission.

[Leoparis]

There is also a flashback for Thor in Endless Wartime and per the narrative it takes place at the same time as the Cap fb, so in October 44. This put Thor's appearance around the second story in Avengers Classic 5 (I don't remember if this had a date but it was during WWII), between Invaders 33 (1942) and Venus 12 (1950s)

INV 33
AC 5/2-FB
VENUS 12

[Michael]

There's another flashback of Cap in a concentration camp in N@ 1, where he talks Namor out of killing the guards.

[Russ Chappell]

It's the first sentence "Our spies say one Dr Heinrich Zemo" which seems to imply he doesn't know him.

I can still hear him speaking in an ironic tone, when he says that. I'm just saying that if it presents a problem to say that Cap hasn't yet met Zemo, his statement is easy to discount. It doesn't have to mean that they haven't met.

[Leoparis]

There's another flashback of Cap in a concentration camp in N@ 1, where he talks Namor out of killing the guards.

Thanks. I'd never read that one.
From what I can see, apart from the differing names-- Bitburg, Diebenwald--this could all be the same sequence in the same extermination camp. For instance, in all flashbacks this is the first time the heroes discover a concentration --or rather, extermination--camp. Lobdell's research is deficient as Bitburg wasn't the place of a concentration camp and the extermination camp were on the eastern side of Germany, mostly in occupied Poland (Bitburg is just next to Luxembourg).
Diebenwald is a made up name.

So I propose this new placement:

CA 237-FB Cap charges the barbed wire fence with his motorbike
FS:IM (8 - 9)-FB As his motorbike crashes the fence, Cap jumps from it
CA 237-FB Cap frees prisoners
CA 241-FB He leads Anna Kappelbaum out
N@ 1/2-FB **(not 1/3 as written. 1/3 is another story taking place during the Potsdam conference, July 1945) with Bucky, Spitfire and Namor
Deadpool 17 He leaves the camp with Bucky

[Col_Fury]

From what I can see, apart from the differing names-- Bitburg, Diebenwald--this could all be the same sequence in the same extermination camp.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. There are two stories with two camps with two names. Why would we assume two places with two names are actually one place?

For instance, in all flashbacks this is the first time the heroes discover a concentration --or rather, extermination--camp.

FS:IM (8 - 9)-FB, for instance, shows no such reaction from Captain America.

An argument could be made for CA 237-FB, but since the flashback is told from Anna's perspective, I don't see how we could definitively say this is the first camp Cap's come across. The Namor Annual, though, is pretty clear that this is the first camp that Namor's seen (and Spitfire). Bucky, maybe. Cap, not so much.

[Leoparis]

From what I can see, apart from the differing names-- Bitburg, Diebenwald--this could all be the same sequence in the same extermination camp.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. There are two stories with two camps with two names. Why would we assume two places with two names are actually one place?

For instance, in all flashbacks this is the first time the heroes discover a concentration --or rather, extermination--camp.

FS:IM (8 - 9)-FB, for instance, shows no such reaction from Captain America.

An argument could be made for CA 237-FB, but since the flashback is told from Anna's perspective, I don't see how we could definitively say this is the first camp Cap's come across. The Namor Annual, though, is pretty clear that this is the first camp that Namor's seen (and Spitfire). Bucky, maybe. Cap, not so much.

They're not stories but flashback scenes. As for the names, one can be the name of the town on which the camp is situated and the other one the name of the camp itself.
In military history there are many such examples of unique places named differently: by river name, nearest main town name, nearest hamlet name. There is also the case of European places having different historical names due to shifting borderlines, relocation of people with different languages and/or rechristening for political or other reasons.

One thing with WWII flashbacks accumulation is that we will soon have more stories and scenes with these characters than there are days in the month. The April 1945 month is quite crowded as it is, especially if we accept the 18 April date for Cap's disappearance. So if I can combine these scenes, I will. If you don't want to, then don't.

I noticed you sorted out Namor Annual 1 based on my comment. It's nice to see my work get noticed and used.

[Michael]

The general rule, though, is that if someone or something has a different name in two flashbacks, we treat them as two separate flashbacks unless it's *clearly intended* to be the same flashback. For example, suppose that we have two flashbacks where Odin sends an emissary to Spider-Man warning him that the Mandrill has kidnapped Aunt May but it one of them the emissary's name is Eric and in the other the emissary's name is Oleg. The writers clearly intend these to be the same incident, so we would probably explain away the different names. In these stories, there's no reason to think that the writers didn't intend these to be different camps.

[Leoparis]

The general rule, though, is that if someone or something has a different name in two flashbacks, we treat them as two separate flashbacks unless it's *clearly intended* to be the same flashback. For example, suppose that we have two flashbacks where Odin sends an emissary to Spider-Man warning him that the Mandrill has kidnapped Aunt May but it one of them the emissary's name is Eric and in the other the emissary's name is Oleg. The writers clearly intend these to be the same incident, so we would probably explain away the different names. In these stories, there's no reason to think that the writers didn't intend these to be different camps.

By the same token, we can't assume writers wanted Cap and the Invaders to raid and discover what an extermination camp is several times. Nor can we assume that they knew other writers had already used such flashbacks. The imagery of John Cassaday in Fallen Son seems to me influenced by the art in Captain America 237, hence why I combined those. Our first thought with flashbacks is usually to consider whether they have already been told.
Currently we have at least 5 flashbacks and two names, one being the name of a town, the other the name of a camp. So at the very least we could combine these events in two instances rather than five. But looking at the chronology, it seems we went the other way, to consider that each new flashback was a different camp.

Here are some historical facts that argue against Cap freeing several camps: Most camps were closed in 1943, with the Nazis hiding traces of their existence. One closed in July 1944 (Majdanek, also known as Lublin, note the two very different names for the same site) two days before the Soviets arrived. Only two camps operated until 1945: Auschwitz and Chelmno. They were both liberated by the Soviets in January 1945.