Born Again

[michel]

Feverish, Matt remembers his accident at the beginning of DD 229:

DD 229 (2:2 - 2:8)-FB: Matt wakes up in a hospital, discovers his new heightened senses, feels he's drugged and his face is cut.
DD 229 (3:2 - 3:8)-FB: Matt hears his father talking to him for the first time since the accident.
DD 229 (4:2 - 4:8)-FB: Maggie sees Matt in the hospital, he clutches her gold cross. It has to be just before DD:BJM 3-FB, in which she says to Jack "I saw Matt today."
DD 229 (5:2 - 5:8)-FB: Jack tells Matt he's blind, but he already knows it.

DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
...
DD 1 (9:3 - 9:4)-FB
DD 229 (2:2 - 2:8)-FB <-- ADD
DD:BJM 2 (21)-FB
DD 229 (3:2 - 3:8)-FB <-- ADD
DD 229 (4:2 - 4:8)-FB <-- ADD
DD 229 (5:2 - 5:8)-FB <-- ADD
DD 500 (13 - 14)-FB
DD 1 (9:5)-FB
...

MURDOCK, JONATHAN "BATTLING JACK"
...
DD 1 (7:6 - 8:5)-FB
DD:BJM 2 (21)-FB
DD 229 (3:2 - 3:8)-FB-VO <-- ADD
DD 229 (5:2 - 5:8)-FB-VO <-- ADD
DD 500-FB
DD 1 (9:5)-FB
...

MURDOCK, MARGARET GRACE "SISTER MAGGIE"
DD:BJM 1 (6 - 15)-FB
DD:T 1-FB
DD:BJM 1 (16 - 20)-FB
DD 229-FB <-- ADD
DD:BJM 3-FB
...

Breakdown for DD 227-230:

DD 227 (4 - 17) : one day and the morning of the next.

"The next few weeks go poorly for Matthew Murdock.": 2-3 weeks?
DD 227 (18:2 - 18:4 + 19:1)-FB: Matt and Foggy prepare the trial
DD 227 (19:4 - 20:1)-FB: the trial
DD 227 (18 - 24): Matt leaves the tribunal, walks home, his house blows up

DD 228 (1 - 19): the next day ("checkout was at noon.") Matt fights the Kingpin, loses.
DD 228 (20): The art shows Matt waking up in a taxi dropped into the East River. The text is about the Kingpin waiting in delight for the corpse to be found. "Days pass into weeks."
DD 228 (21): "At last the cab is discovered," Kingpin reads the report: there is no corpse.
DD 228 (22): a soaked Matt stands in a street near hobos.

DD 229 (1 - 21): Christmas' Eve. Matt is stabbed by Turk, is found by Maggie. In Mexico, Karen meets Paul, he agrees to take her to America. Urich has his fingers broken.
DD 229 (22): "There is no corpse. For six hours this thought has been ringing through his skull."

DD 230 (1 - 2): Maggie is relieved, Matt will survive.
DD 230 (3:1 - 3:3): Karen is on her way to New York.
DD 230 (3:4 - 3:5): Kingpin still upset knowing Matt is alive.
DD 230 (4:1 - 4:4): Foggy signs for a new job, Matt is missing for eleven days.
DD 230 (4:5 - 4:6): Nurses take care of Urich and Manolis.
DD 230 (5:1 - 5:2): Matt wakes up.
DD 230 (5:3): Karen is in New York.
DD 230 (6:1 - 6:2): Kingpin wants to hire Nuke.
DD 230 (6:3 - 6:5): Urich back at home

DD 230 (7 - 8): Matt meets Maggie, he's still weak.
DD 230 (9): Karen phones Debbie Nelson, then Foggy.
DD 230 (10): Urich backs down on Jonah.
DD 230 (11:1 - 11:2): Matt recognizes Maggie's gold cross.
DD 230 (11:3 - 11:5): Paulo hits Karen.
DD 230 (11:6 - 14:4): Urich is on the phone with Manolis when he's killed.
DD 230 (14:5 - 15:1): Matt is feverish.
DD 230 (15:2 - 15:3): Karen meets Foggy.
DD 230 (15:4 - 16:3): It took days to find Nuke is in Nicaragua.
DD 230 (16:4 - 21:3): intertwined: Urich dares to say Matt's name, Matt is feverish, Karen and Foggy speak.
DD 230 (21:4 - 21:6): Kingpin want Melvin Potter to make a Daredevil's costume.
DD 230 (21:7 - 22): Matt gets better, he asks Maggie if she's his mother.

There's a gap between pages 19 and 20 of DD 228, between the Kingpin beating Matt and the cab being found in the East River. So to me, all the not-Kingpin sequences in DD 229 and DD 230 (1 - 6) are FB.

So chronogically:
DD 228 (1 - 19)
DD 228 (22)-FB
DD 229 (1 - 21)-FB
DD 230 (4:5 - 4:6)-FB
DD 230 (1 - 3:3)-FB
DD 230 (4:1 - 4:4)-FB
DD 230 (5)-FB
DD 230 (6:3 - 6:5)-FB
DD 228 (20 - 22)
DD 229
DD 230

What do you think?

[Leoparis]

You could have all of 229-FB after DD:BJM 2 (21)-FB (Matt is still unconscious on that page), which would make it unnecessary to separate the 229 sequences from each other or even to break then down (isn't that one continuous flashback?).

In my earlier post I had questions. Since the flashbacks in 191 and 229 are the original ones that inspired the later ones from DD:F 1, DD:BJM and DD 500, do we review the latter ones to make sure we've not repeated the same scene?

The narration makes it complicated to organize chronologically. (Not the first time I notice Miller being messy with timelines.) Page 20 shows Murdock regaining consciousness in the cab, yet the disconnected narration states "days pass into weeks." Page 21 would thus be weeks later. But page 22 is supposedly right after Murdock got out of the water (if "all the non-Kingpin scenes are flashbacks after 228 (21)").
So page 21 becomes a flashforward.

In practical fashion DD 227-233 is usually kept together rather than strung in segments in general Marvel chronology.

So I would tend to dismiss the "days pass into weeks" as Kingpin's imagination (it doesn't match the pictures and there is no pictorial or narrative evidence of that passage of time).
Therefore the cab is actually discovered shortly after it dived into water so we can keep the chronology straight (without flashbacks).

[michel]

You could have all of 229-FB after DD:BJM 2 (21)-FB (Matt is still unconscious on that page), which would make it unnecessary to separate the 229 sequences from each other or even to break then down (isn't that one continuous flashback?).

Matt says in DD 229 (1) he's feeling they're cutting his eyes, DD:BJM 2 (21)-FB looks like the first time Jack sees him, after he's been operated on, his eyes are bandaged.

In my earlier post I had questions. Since the flashbacks in 191 and 229 are the original ones that inspired the later ones from DD:F 1, DD:BJM and DD 500, do we review the latter ones to make sure we've not repeated the same scene?

Yes we should review them. I've checked for the DD 229 ones.

The narration makes it complicated to organize chronologically. (Not the first time I notice Miller being messy with timelines.) Page 20 shows Murdock regaining consciousness in the cab, yet the disconnected narration states "days pass into weeks." Page 21 would thus be weeks later. But page 22 is supposedly right after Murdock got out of the water (if "all the non-Kingpin scenes are flashbacks after 228 (21)").
So page 21 becomes a flashforward.

In practical fashion DD 227-233 is usually kept together rather than strung in segments in general Marvel chronology.

So I would tend to dismiss the "days pass into weeks" as Kingpin's imagination (it doesn't match the pictures and there is no pictorial or narrative evidence of that passage of time).
Therefore the cab is actually discovered shortly after it dived into water so we can keep the chronology straight (without flashbacks).

At least DD 228 (22), Matt just out of the taxi still soaked, should be a FB.
In DD 230 (4:1 - 4:4), Glori says Matt is missing for eleven days. If we end the FBs at DD 230 (7), it could make two weeks before the cab is found. It gives time for Matt to heal and for Karen to reach New York by car (with stops, Paulo is not in a hurry to see her leave).

[Leoparis]

Matt says in DD 229 (1) he's feeling they're cutting his eyes, DD:BJM 2 (21)-FB looks like the first time Jack sees him, after he's been operated on, his eyes are bandaged.

Good point.

Yes we should review them. I've checked for the DD 229 ones.

OK.

At least DD 228 (22), Matt just out of the taxi still soaked, should be a FB.
In DD 230 (4:1 - 4:4), Glori says Matt is missing for eleven days. If we end the FBs at DD 230 (7), it could make two weeks before the cab is found. It gives time for Matt to heal and for Karen to reach New York by car (with stops, Paulo is not in a hurry to see her leave).

Well, he could be soaked from the snow seen falling in the next issue. But that's probably not the intention.

Your reading of the line 229 (22) is oriented but ultimately correct as shown by the timeline below. (The thought that has been obsessing him could be the final line of the page, "A man without hope is also a man without fear." DD 229 (22): "For six hours this thought has been ringing through his skull. [...] "A man without hope is also a man without fear." When read this way, that page 22 can take place anytime.)

Murdock's slow beard growth, the Manolis situation, Karen Page's journey, all point to a days-long rather than weeks-long timeline. That's what I get with "11 days and 6 hrs" from #230. From Glori's viewpoint Matt has been missing since he last phoned her in 228. Foggy signs on Jan 2nd, this places 228 on Dec 22. 229 is the day before the Christmas Eve edition. Everything matches.

So yes, all of 229 except Kingpin is a flashback. Which means that Kingpin is also bts in 229-FB (covering his tracks in Matt's disappearance)

But unless I missed something (you've been one step ahead of me all along) by 230 with the bottom half of page 2 integrated among the other sequences, we're caught up, right? So that you can fit the Kingpin from 228 (21) and 229 before 230:

KINGPIN
DD 228 (1 - 20)
DD 229-FB
DD 228 (21)
DD 229
DD 230

[michel]

Murdock's slow beard growth, the Manolis situation, Karen Page's journey, all point to a days-long rather than weeks-long timeline. That's what I get with "11 days and 6 hrs" from #230. From Glori's viewpoint Matt has been missing since he last phoned her in 228. Foggy signs on Jan 2nd, this places 228 on Dec 22. 229 is the day before the Christmas Eve edition. Everything matches.

Ah I had missed the 2nd of January reference for Foggy, good catch!

But unless I missed something (you've been one step ahead of me all along) by 230 with the bottom half of page 2 integrated among the other sequences, we're caught up, right? So that you can fit the Kingpin from 228 (21) and 229 before 230:

I guess you meant the bottom half of page 4 with Urich, but as I said in the first post I would have DD 230 (1 - 6) as FB. By then, Karen is in New York, Urich is back home, Matt regains consciousness.

[Leoparis]

I guess you meant the bottom half of page 4 with Urich, but as I said in the first post I would have DD 230 (1 - 6) as FB. By then, Karen is in New York, Urich is back home, Matt regains consciousness.

Er, no, I mean the bottom of page 2 with the Kingpin, which picks up from his last page in 229. Why would pages 1-6 of 230 be a flashback since those pages are concurrent with the Kingpin from 228 (21) and 229 (22)?

228 (21) full page tells us it's more than a week after the taxi went down.
229 (22) full page tells us it's 6 hours after 228 (21)
There is nothing in 230 (2) to indicate that the Kingpin panels happen at a different time than the top half, or a different time from the pages surrounding it.

I guess you take DD 228 (21) to be at least two weeks after the taxi went down, but I think it's meant to be exactly 11 days (to which you add the six hours he spent thinking about it, hence "eleven days... and six hours"). I sold Miller short, he had his timeline carefully plotted. Eleven days means this is during the second week since Murdock's disappearance, hence "days passed into weeks" It's like one's age. One can be thirty-two years old but this is one's fourth decade.

[michel]

Er, no, I mean the bottom of page 2 with the Kingpin, which picks up from his last page in 229.

That's the bottom of page 3 then.

Why would pages 1-6 of 230 be a flashback since those pages are concurrent with the Kingpin from 228 (21) and 229 (22)?

I meant DD 230 (1 - 6) without the Kingpin sequences.

[Leoparis]

That's the bottom of page 3 then.

On yes, sorry. I mistakenly counted from the title page.

I meant DD 230 (1 - 6) without the Kingpin sequences.

I got that. But I think the other characters have caught up with the Kingpin's timeline in those pages. Extracting half a page is odd. When modern cartoonists want to set a sequence apart from the main flow, it usually falls on a full page or with a design that sets it apart from other sequences (black bleed, wavy borders, monochromatic or faded coloring, etc.). Mazzuchelli not only uses the same layout as the top half but keeps to a horizontal design in surrounding pages. Visually it communicates that these are all concurrent and in sequence.

I forgot BTS for 229-FB.
KINGPIN
DD 228 (1 - 20)
DD 229-FB-BTS
DD 228 (21)
DD 229
DD 230

[michel]

We've established that DD 229-FB is just after DD 228 (1 - 19), then there's a gap between DD 229-FB and DD 230. Ben Urich has WOSM 13 and ASM 273 between DD 228 and DD 229-FB, they should be placed before DD 227.

DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
...
DD 228 (1 - 9:4)
DD 228-FB --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (10:3 - 10:4)-FB
DD 228 (11:1 - 11:2)-FB <-- ADD
DD 228 (11:4 - 12:5)-FB <-- ADD
DD 228 (13:1 - 13:4)-FB <-- ADD
DD 228 (9:5 - 19) --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (9:5 - 22)
DD 300 (14:2 - 15)-FB
DD 300 (12:4)-FB
DD 228 (20 - 22) --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (20)-FB
DD 228 (22)-FB <-- ADD
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
DD 230
...

BLAKE, BECKY
...
DD 226
DD 231-BTS <-- DELETE
DD2 8
...

FRANKLIN, LOIS new
DD 229-FB
DD 230 (1 - 14:3)
DD 230-FB
DD 230 (14:4 - 22)
DD 231
DD 232

GROTTO
...
DD 220
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
CWII:K 1
...

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
...
WOSM 12
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE TO HERE
DD 228
DD 230
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
WOSM 14
...

MANOLIS, LT. NICK
...
DD 227
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
DD 230 (4:5 - 4:6)-FB <-- ADD
DD 230 (1 - 14:3)
DD 230-FB --> CHANGE TO DD 230 (17:1)-FB
DD 230 (17:6)-FB <-- ADD
DD 230 (14:4 - 22) --> CHANGE TO DD 230 (14:4 - 22)-OP

MURDOCK, MARGARET GRACE "SISTER MAGGIE"
...
DD:BJM 3-FB
{DD 229} --> CHANGE TO {DD 229-FB}
DD 230
...

NELSON, ANNA
...
DD 166
DD 229-FB-BTS <-- ADD
DD 356-FB-BTS
...

NELSON, DEBBIE HARRIS
...
DD 222
DD 230-BTS <-- ADD

NELSON, FRANKLIN PERCY "FOGGY"
...
DD 228
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
DD 230
...

O'BREEN, GLORIANNA
...
DD 228
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
DD 230
...

PAGE, KAREN/"PAIGE ANGEL"
...
DD 228
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
DD 230
...

POTTER, BETSY BEATTY
...
DD 226
DD 231-BTS <-- ADD
M/CP 98/4
...

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"
...
PPSSM 110
WOSM 12 <-- MOVE TO HERE
DD 227
WOSM 12 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
WOSM 13
DD 230 <-- MOVE TO HERE
PPSSM 112
ASM 275
ASM 276
WOSM 14
DD 230 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 278
...

SCORCESE, PAULO new
DD 229-FB
DD 230
DD 231

TURK II/BARRETT
...
DD 203
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
M/GN:DD
...

URICH, BENJAMIN
...
PPSSM 104
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE TO HERE
ASM 273 <-- MOVE TO HERE
P 2-BTS <-- ADD
DD 227
DD 228
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 273 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
DD 229 --> CHANGE TO DD 229-FB
DD 230-FB <-- ADD
DD 230
...

[michel]

I got that. But I think the other characters have caught up with the Kingpin's timeline in those pages. Extracting half a page is odd. When modern cartoonists want to set a sequence apart from the main flow, it usually falls on a full page or with a design that sets it apart from other sequences (black bleed, wavy borders, monochromatic or faded coloring, etc.). Mazzuchelli not only uses the same layout as the top half but keeps to a horizontal design in surrounding pages. Visually it communicates that these are all concurrent and in sequence.

Actually, you have the Kingpin asking to locate Nuke on page 6, the page after Karen arrives in New York, then thinking on page 16 it took days to find out that Nuke was in Nicaragua. If Karen had to wait some days to escape Paulo's attention to call Foggy, if Ben stays a little bit at home before going back to the Bugle, then yes there's no need for a FB in DD 230.

[Leoparis]

And 229-FB is after 228 (22)

Then the sequence is:
228 (1 - 20)
228 (22) Murdock out of water
229-FB (= 1 -21) (Kingpin covering his tracks bts)
228 (21) 11 days later KIngpin learns there is no corpse
229 (22) six hours later
230 eleven days and six hours after DD 228
The only flashback in 230 is the inside flashback to Manolis's murder.

Manolis is OP if you will in 14:4 but not (14:4 - 22). After 14 he just appears in flashbacks in various panels. Lois Franklin hangs up and the hospital room is not shown in the present after page 14. So same thing for her.

Why this line change for DD? DD 228 (9:5 - 19) --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (9:5 - 22)

[michel]

Manolis is OP if you will in 14:4 but not (14:4 - 22). After 14 he just appears in flashbacks in various panels. Lois Franklin hangs up and the hospital room is not shown in the present after page 14. So same thing for her.

Manolis is OP in (14:4) and doesn't appear in the main story after that, so he's OP in (14:4 - 22). He appears in FB that are listed before (14:4).

Why this line change for DD? DD 228 (9:5 - 19) --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (9:5 - 22)

It's the same, Matt doesn't appear in the main story in DD 228 (20 - 22), so we can extend (9:5 - 19) to (9:5 - 22), he appears only in FB on pages 20 and 22.

[Leoparis]

I'm not tracking with you on the notation. Stripped to the basics, your argument reads "Matt doesn't appear in 20-22 in the main story so we can mark him as appearing"

228 (19) Matt goes unconscious.
228 (20) visually it follows from 19. Narratively it goes into omniscient narrator mode, including a shift to the future "days pass into weeks" in the last panel.
I don't think I would index the page as a whole as a flashback. It's not a flashback for the only character on the page, Murdock. The omniscient narrator uses present tense. The narrative shift into the future mostly concerns Kingpin but characters appearing only in narration rarely get indexed. (Capt. McKenzie in Marvel Comics 1 being a rare exception.)

With page 21 we shift, visually this time, to eleven days into the future. Matt cannot be continuously in DD 228 (20 - 22) [or (9:5 - 22) since that's what we're talking about] since he makes appearances during those 11 days, the first of which is page 22 and then issue 229. And he also makes appearance in DD 300-FB between pages 19 & 20.

page 19
DD 300-FB
page 20
jump 11 days into the future
page 21
page 22 flashback 11 days back

[Antonio Gaviño]

I don’t see the need to make pages 1-21 of DD 229 a flashback. They are narrated as happening in the present at all times. The way I understand it, each comic book has to be treated as its own entity, DD 229 can’t depend on the events of another book (in this case, page 21 of DD 228) for its scenes to be deemed flashbacks.
Let’s say DD 228 never existed, would somebody think of calling DD 229 (1-21) flashback scenes? No. For me, page 22 of DD 229 is similar to page 21 of DD 228, a scene that jumps ahead in the future in relation to the previous pages (a flashforward), with the ’six hours’ mention happening behind the scenes between pages 21 and 22 of DD 229.

[michel]

Antonio, we've been discussing your post between directors.

You're wrong on one point: Each comic has to be treated as it relates to other comics, not as its own entity, as if other comics "never existed."

But you have a point when you say that the narrative of DD 219 does not read as a flashback. So, to not force an unnatural flashback, we can use a method we rarely use: "unhook" one portion of a book from others. When we use it, it's often when the end of an issue is repeated and expanded at the beginning of the next issue.
If we assume the timeline of the Kingpin is back in line with the timelines of the other characters at the beginning of DD 230, then the general timeline can read:
DD 228 (1 - 21)
DD 228 (22)
DD 229 (1 - 21)
DD 228 (21)
DD 229 (22)
DD 230

But as only the Kingpin is unhooked eleven days in the future and he doesn't appear in other sequences, the unhooking won't show in the listings of any characters as in the general timeline, but we will avoid the unnatural flashbacks.

DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
...
DD 228 (1 - 9:4)
DD 228-FB
DD 228 (9:5 - 19)
DD 300 (14:2 - 15)-FB
DD 300 (12:4)-FB
DD 228 (20 - 22) --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (20)
DD 228 (22) <-- ADD
DD 229
DD 230

BLAKE, BECKY
...
DD 226
DD 231-BTS <-- DELETE
DD2 8
...

FRANKLIN, LOIS new
DD 229-FB
DD 230 (1 - 14:3)
DD 230-FB
DD 230 (14:4 - 22)
DD 231
DD 230
...

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
...
WOSM 12
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE TO HERE
DD 228
DD 230
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
WOSM 14
...

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK
...
DD 228 (1 - 19)
DD 300 (14:2 - 15)-FB
DD 300 (12:4)-FB-BTS
DD 228 (20 - 22) --> CHANGE TO DD 228 (21)
DD 229
DD 230
...

MANOLIS, LT. NICK
...
DD 227
DD 229
DD 230 (4:5 - 4:6)-FB <-- ADD
DD 230 (1 - 14:3)
DD 230-FB --> CHANGE TO DD 230 (17:1)-FB
DD 230 (17:7)-FB <-- ADD
DD 230 (14:4 - 22) --> CHANGE TO DD 230 (14:4 - 22)-OP

NELSON, ANNA
...
DD 166
DD 229-BTS <-- ADD
DD 356-FB-BTS
...

NELSON, DEBBIE HARRIS
...
DD 222
DD 230-BTS <-- ADD

POTTER, BETSY BEATTY
...
DD 226
DD 231-BTS <-- ADD
M/CP 98/4
...

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"
...
PPSSM 110
WOSM 12 <-- MOVE TO HERE
DD 227
WOSM 12 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
WOSM 13
DD 230 <-- MOVE TO HERE
PPSSM 112
ASM 275
ASM 276
WOSM 14
DD 230 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 278
...

SCORCESE, PAULO new
DD 229
DD 230
DD 231

URICH, BENJAMIN
...
PPSSM 104
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE TO HERE
ASM 273 <-- MOVE TO HERE
P 2-BTS <-- ADD
DD 227
DD 228
WOSM 13 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
ASM 273 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
DD 229
DD 230-FB <-- ADD
DD 230
...