FF 333 and its environs
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:05 pm
There is a clash in positioning of FF 333 in some chronologies. And while investigating that I found 2 other clashes nearby.
Scarlet Witch and Thor disagree with where others have FF 333. They have it after A 305-310.
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306 ****
A 307-BTS ****
A 308 ****
ASPOT 22/2
FF 333 ****
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310 ****
FF 333 ****
A@ 18
----
Captain America, Dr Pym, Invisible Woman, Mr Fantastic, She-Hulk, Thing, Tigra, Wasp and Wonder Man all have FF 333 before A 305-310, eg:-
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333 ****
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304
CA 355-357
A 305-310 ****
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
FF 326
FF 327 (1 - 14)
T 405
FF 327 (15 - 22)
FF 328-333 ****
A 305 ****
SS@ 2/2
A 307-308 ****
SENSH 6
CM GSSPEC
A@ 18
----
Paul Bourcier designed the current position of FF 333 in the June 2010 thread "Chronology corrections -- FF 333 etc.". He was responding to the then-existing clash where The Fantastic Four (and She-Hulk I think) had FF 333 before A 305-310 and various Avengers had them the other way round. He chose the FF's claim to be the correct one based on the fact that FF 326-333 are a continuous story and Thing becomes a normal human in FF 326. He's still human after that and appears so in A 305 which must therefore follow the FF block.
Paul proposed that FF 333 be moved back for the Avengers, and his proposal is essentially the current state. Except his suggestions for Scarlet Witch and Thor haven't been actioned. I presume this was just an oversight.
The subject was brought up again almost immediately in July 2010 thread "Which Comes First, FF 333 or A 308-310?" in which Michael pointed out the *reason* why the Avengers had A 305-310 before FF 326-333 - In A 308 they think Hercules is dead (since Evolutionary War's A@ 17), but in FF 333 they already know he's alive (returned to corporeal form in T 407 and now accompanying Thor). Michael proposed putting a gap in the middle of FF 327 and inserting A 305-310 in there to satisfy all the constraints. (From the end of FF 328 to the beginning of FF 333 the real FF (with Ms Marvel instead of Thing) are captured and replaced by evil clones). But he immediately withdrew the proposal because in FF 328 She-Hulk sees the human Thing for the 1st time, but she also sees him in A 305 which therefore can't be in the middle of FF 327.
Because no solution fits all the clues I guess MCP just stayed with Paul's version. However the split within FF 327 *does* get introduced for something else, which will have a bearing on proceedings here.
Paul's suggestions for Scarlet Witch and Thor were:-
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
WCA2 42
WCA2 43
WCA2 44
WCA2 45
**AWC 56-FB** (add) [an extra change PB threw in]
WCA2 46
----
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
----
There have been other changes since Paul's thread which have to be taken into account.
Scarlet Witch now has a suggested addition of A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB (she and Vision playing with their kids in the West Coast Avengers compound) between M/FAN 48/3-BTS and WCA2 42. There's nothing to indicate an exact order for the addition and FF 333, but I'm going to put FF 333 1st - purely to leave the family FB poised ironically just before Wanda loses the loving Vision when his emotions and personality are removed.
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----
To get a clearer idea of where Paul was moving FF 333 for Thor I need to expand the Thor timeline Paul listed. I understand from the thread that the relevant chronology was as described in the 1995 Avengers Official Marvel Index. On that basis I posit the situation was:-
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
T 402-408
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
A 304
A 305-310
**FF 333** (move from here)
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A@ 18
----
A comparison with the current chronology shows that much has changed. T 402-408 (where Thor gets merged with Eric Masterson and gives up the Sigurd Jarlson id) have been moved to between A@ 18/2 and A 305-310, and M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 304 have been placed within T 402 (because A 304 needs the Jarlson id to be still in play). (This was all decided by Col_Fury and Paul B in the Jul-Nov 2010 thread "FF in Thor 405".) M/CP 44/2-45/2 have been brought before A 305-310.
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
FF 333
A@ 18
----
The obvious 1st stab at placing FF 333 is between M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 304 as Paul intended. But that would now pose a problem with the chronology of Mr Fantastic and the rest of the FF. Eg
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
FF 326
FF 327 (1 - 14)
T 405
FF 327 (15 - 22)
FF 328-333
A 305
SS@ 2/2
A 307-308
SENSH 6
CM GSSPEC
A@ 18
----
They have T 405 in the gap in FF 327 mentioned earlier. Thus FF 333 can't be before T 405, and hence later amendments have made Paul's target position for FF 333 in Thor's timeline no longer feasible.
Looking back at Captain America's listing we see that he has FF 333 after M/CP 44/2-45/2. To fit in with that I'd just have to move Thor's M/CP issues back 1 step to before A 305-310.
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----
But looking instead at Scarlet Witch
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----
we see that for her FF 333 is long *before* the M/CP issues (which has to be true if we follow Paul's intention to have FF 333 before WCA2 42-45). (Note that the M/CP bits 38/2, 44/2 and 45/2 are part of 1 story in M/CP 38/2-45/2 starring Wonder Man.) This clash of ordering isn't confined to Cap and the Witch (as we'll see later) so moving FF 333 for her won't make the problem go away. But for now, knowing what's to come, I'll choose to align Thor with Wanda and put his FF 333 before M/CP 44/2-45/2.
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
FF 333 **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
A@ 18
----
The sharp-eyed reader might object that Cap and Thor now have FF 333 and A 304 in opposite orders. But that's got nothing to do with whether I put Thor's FF 333 before or after the M/CPO issues. It's because the FF won't let us put it before A 304. And that's another tale for later too.
Note that this also affects Eric Masterson's BTS appearances.
MASTERSON, ERIC
----
T 402-408
FF 333-BTS **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2-BTS
M/CP 45/2-BTS
A 305-310-BTS
A@ 18-BTS
I'll break the post at this point and deal with the side-issues raised above in the next section.
Scarlet Witch and Thor disagree with where others have FF 333. They have it after A 305-310.
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306 ****
A 307-BTS ****
A 308 ****
ASPOT 22/2
FF 333 ****
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310 ****
FF 333 ****
A@ 18
----
Captain America, Dr Pym, Invisible Woman, Mr Fantastic, She-Hulk, Thing, Tigra, Wasp and Wonder Man all have FF 333 before A 305-310, eg:-
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333 ****
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304
CA 355-357
A 305-310 ****
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
FF 326
FF 327 (1 - 14)
T 405
FF 327 (15 - 22)
FF 328-333 ****
A 305 ****
SS@ 2/2
A 307-308 ****
SENSH 6
CM GSSPEC
A@ 18
----
Paul Bourcier designed the current position of FF 333 in the June 2010 thread "Chronology corrections -- FF 333 etc.". He was responding to the then-existing clash where The Fantastic Four (and She-Hulk I think) had FF 333 before A 305-310 and various Avengers had them the other way round. He chose the FF's claim to be the correct one based on the fact that FF 326-333 are a continuous story and Thing becomes a normal human in FF 326. He's still human after that and appears so in A 305 which must therefore follow the FF block.
Paul proposed that FF 333 be moved back for the Avengers, and his proposal is essentially the current state. Except his suggestions for Scarlet Witch and Thor haven't been actioned. I presume this was just an oversight.
The subject was brought up again almost immediately in July 2010 thread "Which Comes First, FF 333 or A 308-310?" in which Michael pointed out the *reason* why the Avengers had A 305-310 before FF 326-333 - In A 308 they think Hercules is dead (since Evolutionary War's A@ 17), but in FF 333 they already know he's alive (returned to corporeal form in T 407 and now accompanying Thor). Michael proposed putting a gap in the middle of FF 327 and inserting A 305-310 in there to satisfy all the constraints. (From the end of FF 328 to the beginning of FF 333 the real FF (with Ms Marvel instead of Thing) are captured and replaced by evil clones). But he immediately withdrew the proposal because in FF 328 She-Hulk sees the human Thing for the 1st time, but she also sees him in A 305 which therefore can't be in the middle of FF 327.
Because no solution fits all the clues I guess MCP just stayed with Paul's version. However the split within FF 327 *does* get introduced for something else, which will have a bearing on proceedings here.
Paul's suggestions for Scarlet Witch and Thor were:-
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
WCA2 42
WCA2 43
WCA2 44
WCA2 45
**AWC 56-FB** (add) [an extra change PB threw in]
WCA2 46
----
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
----
There have been other changes since Paul's thread which have to be taken into account.
Scarlet Witch now has a suggested addition of A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB (she and Vision playing with their kids in the West Coast Avengers compound) between M/FAN 48/3-BTS and WCA2 42. There's nothing to indicate an exact order for the addition and FF 333, but I'm going to put FF 333 1st - purely to leave the family FB poised ironically just before Wanda loses the loving Vision when his emotions and personality are removed.
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----
To get a clearer idea of where Paul was moving FF 333 for Thor I need to expand the Thor timeline Paul listed. I understand from the thread that the relevant chronology was as described in the 1995 Avengers Official Marvel Index. On that basis I posit the situation was:-
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
T 402-408
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
A 304
A 305-310
**FF 333** (move from here)
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A@ 18
----
A comparison with the current chronology shows that much has changed. T 402-408 (where Thor gets merged with Eric Masterson and gives up the Sigurd Jarlson id) have been moved to between A@ 18/2 and A 305-310, and M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 304 have been placed within T 402 (because A 304 needs the Jarlson id to be still in play). (This was all decided by Col_Fury and Paul B in the Jul-Nov 2010 thread "FF in Thor 405".) M/CP 44/2-45/2 have been brought before A 305-310.
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
FF 333
A@ 18
----
The obvious 1st stab at placing FF 333 is between M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 304 as Paul intended. But that would now pose a problem with the chronology of Mr Fantastic and the rest of the FF. Eg
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
FF 326
FF 327 (1 - 14)
T 405
FF 327 (15 - 22)
FF 328-333
A 305
SS@ 2/2
A 307-308
SENSH 6
CM GSSPEC
A@ 18
----
They have T 405 in the gap in FF 327 mentioned earlier. Thus FF 333 can't be before T 405, and hence later amendments have made Paul's target position for FF 333 in Thor's timeline no longer feasible.
Looking back at Captain America's listing we see that he has FF 333 after M/CP 44/2-45/2. To fit in with that I'd just have to move Thor's M/CP issues back 1 step to before A 305-310.
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----
But looking instead at Scarlet Witch
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----
we see that for her FF 333 is long *before* the M/CP issues (which has to be true if we follow Paul's intention to have FF 333 before WCA2 42-45). (Note that the M/CP bits 38/2, 44/2 and 45/2 are part of 1 story in M/CP 38/2-45/2 starring Wonder Man.) This clash of ordering isn't confined to Cap and the Witch (as we'll see later) so moving FF 333 for her won't make the problem go away. But for now, knowing what's to come, I'll choose to align Thor with Wanda and put his FF 333 before M/CP 44/2-45/2.
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
FF 333 **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
A@ 18
----
The sharp-eyed reader might object that Cap and Thor now have FF 333 and A 304 in opposite orders. But that's got nothing to do with whether I put Thor's FF 333 before or after the M/CPO issues. It's because the FF won't let us put it before A 304. And that's another tale for later too.
Note that this also affects Eric Masterson's BTS appearances.
MASTERSON, ERIC
----
T 402-408
FF 333-BTS **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2-BTS
M/CP 45/2-BTS
A 305-310-BTS
A@ 18-BTS
I'll break the post at this point and deal with the side-issues raised above in the next section.