MGN #5 between which two issues?

[JephYork]

I'm sure we've been over this before, but I can't recall the conversation, and I'm not finding it in a search.

Remind me again why we have MGN #5 (God Loves, Man Kills) placed between UX #168-169, instead of the more intuitive placement between #167-168?

(We also have X&AF2 #1-2 placed there. How come? And is that related to why we placed MGN #5 there?)

-Jeph!

[Somebody]

Strictly, M/GN 5 is actually placed between pages of UX 168, if you look at Cyclops' entry, not between 168 & 169.

X&AF2 being placed in that gap appears to stem from the "X-Men/Alpha Flight II" thread in Archive 36 - where David Hall places it there, between the second-last and last pages of UX 168, specifically to have it before Cyclops meets Madelyne and before Wolverine leaves for Japan - but the MCP must already have placed God Loves, Man Kills there by then, as he notes that "The MCP already supports [DHall's] theory about a gap between ux 168 and the last page of it, where Scott meets Maddy, as the Graphic Novel occurs in this gap." - and a similar thread in Archive 55 ("Alpha Flight Correction") where he makes the same placement suggestions over again [You may want to have a look at those threads if you're placing X&AF2, certainly]. He says in the latter thread that "There is a period of weeks, in between Kitty fighting the Sidri, and Scott meeting Madelyne. Other stories are set during this time including the first few pages of W 1, and The X-Men Graphic novel. "

Earlier, in Archive 29, you proposed a sequence for Storm's chronology there [Dec 5, 2002] going UX 168 -> XU 39 - > M/GN 5, noting that:

Story #1 takes place "just after Storm's return to earth", and notes that she's having troubles controlling her powers. This is consistent with UX #168 or so, and her costume backs that up. Magneto guest-stars, and she confronts him as a villain -- not as a struggling man with a painful past, an impression that Magneto begins to give the X-Men from M/GN #5-onwards.

I'm tempted to place the story between UX #168, where Storm first acknowledges that her powers are misbehaving, and M/GN #5, where Magneto begins to evoke a better character in the X-Men's eyes.

Which gives SOME reasoning for why it'd be there... [NB: XU 39 doesn't appear to be in the MCP as of today]

And further, Russ says back in Archive 10 [May 2001] that:

As for God Loves, Man Kills, that was Marvel Graphic Novel #5 (M/GN 5), and you'll find it between Uncanny X-Men #168 & #169.

I can't find any earlier reference, so it's a LONG-standing placement, not a forum suggestion. Maybe from a prior Index?

Russ, any thoughts?

[Michael]

The problem with placing X&AF2 between pages of UX 168 is discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4697
Basically, X&AF2 take place after Alpha Flight 4, which crosses over with FF 260. The problem lies in Defenders 122-125. In Defenders 124, Vision appears, and this takes place before he gets paralyzed in FF 256. In Defenders 125, Angel appears and tells about how traumatic being kidnapped by Callisto in UX 169-170 was. The problem is that Namor and the Silver Surfer were zapped out of time in Defenders 122 and returned in Defenders 125 but they appear in FF 260. We suggested placing a gap in the middle of Defenders 125 and assuming that Namor and the Silver Surfer appeared in FF 260 during the gap but no change was made to the project.

[Russ Chappell]

And further, Russ says back in Archive 10 [May 2001] that:

As for God Loves, Man Kills, that was Marvel Graphic Novel #5 (M/GN 5), and you'll find it between Uncanny X-Men #168 & #169.

I can't find any earlier reference, so it's a LONG-standing placement, not a forum suggestion. Maybe from a prior Index?

Russ, any thoughts?

What does the 1990's X-Men Index say? I can only say that, as a rule of thumb, I would not place a story between pages of any other story on my own, unless I felt I had no choice. Since this apparently pre-dates the Forum, it seems that I didn't base it on someone else's suggestion. If you don't see any self-apparent reason for its placement, Jeph, I would look toward the Index.

[JephYork]

D'oh, yup, 1990s Index #3. Thanks.

Michael, I couldn't quite follow that. Are you suggesting any changes to the placement of X&AF2 relative to UX?

-Jeph!

[Michael]

No- I guess I'm suggesting creating a gap in DEF 125.It's sort of complicated.Basically, DEF 122-125 were intended by DeMatteis as a continuous story that takes place before FF 256 and after UX 170. Unfortunately, Raab ignored those issues when he wrote X&AF2 (which takes place after FF 260) and that creates problems for the Defenders' chronology.
Currently, FF 259-261 are placed after DEF 122-125 in Namor's and the Silver Surfer's chronologies. Those issues cross over with Alpha Flight 4, which is placed before X&AF2. The problem is that X&AF2 is currently placed before UX 169, and UX 169 occurs before DEF 125 for Warren. So X&AF2 takes place both before and after DEF 125?
The simplest solution to this problem is to create a gap in DEF 125, and assume that FF 259-261 takes place in this gap. That way UX 169 stays in the same place relative to X&AF2.

[Michael]

Ok, here's the posting from archive 36 regarding X&AF2:

X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by David Hall on July 13, 2003 at 10:55:06:

Quesion: Why in the X-Men's chronology is X-Men/Alpha Flight II listed as occuring after the Wolverine LS and before x-men 172? Wolverine is in Japan during this period, not Westchester.

It makes more sense for these issues to occur after X-Men 168, and before the Wolverine LS.

Dave

* * *

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 21:29:12:
In Reply to: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by David Hall on July 13, 2003 at 10:55:06:

Although I don't have the time to follow up right now, here are my notes, to stimulate further discussion...

X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT #1
One day; at first glance, it would seem that this story occurs sometime between UX 167 and 168, but since it occurs after AF 4 (16-22), it must occur between W 4 and UX 172 -- in that case, Scott must be back visiting from Alaska -- although he would have met Madelyne by now and his empty feelings would be unexplained, Logan must be back visiting from Japan -- perhaps to personally announce his engagement -- and Rogue’s absence is explained in Rogue v2.

Don't know if that helps or not.

--Paul

* * *

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 13:21:57:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 13, 2003 at 21:29:12:

Pual I will look at AF 4 probably tomorrow, to check this out. However, from memory, Logan sent his engagement via a card, and the x-men didn't see him again until they went to Japan. (I think they remark on how it's been a while since they've seen him.)

X-Men/AF II occurs before Scott meets Madelyne, otherwise he probably wouldn't be visting Jean's grave (with Logan no less)

I believe that this story occurs between pages of Uncanny X-Men #168, specifically between the last two pages, before Scott takes his holiday in Alaska and meets Maddy.

I thought the consensus was that Rogue Vol.2 is Not Cannonical, as Jean is alive in that series. (Haven't read it yet myself to know.)

I will have to look at all the relevant issues to develop my line of thought further on this one..... (Personally if it comes down to a choice between believing taht the fb to AF4 is wrong in this LS, or that Claremont got it wrong in UXM 268-272, and Wolverine 1-4, I'll go with the AF FB being wrong.)

Dave

* * *

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 19:44:48:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 13:21:57:

Paul,

I see nothing in AF 4 that places this story in chronology between w4 and x-men 172.

In W4 The last page is of the card that Logan sends to the X-Men, and them sitting around smiling at it. Logan DID NOT return to New York to give them the news in person. In X-men 172, Logan does NOT even know that Rogue is on the team. No one has told him, and he would have found out if he had been back in NEw York.

It messes too many things up chronolgy wise to have this series occur betwen W 4 & Xmen 172.

Scott has clearly not met Madelyne yet, Logan is clearly not getting ready to marry Mariko yet. If they had/were, the whole scene at Jean's grave would be completely different.

Nothing in AF 4 changes any of the X-Men chronology, and Rogue V.2 is non cannon.

I propose moving X-Men/AF II to in between pages of XMen 168. I'll post the character corrections in my next reply.

Dave

* * *

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 20:22:29:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 19:44:48:

Wolverine
UX 168
W 1
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
W 1
W 2
W 3
W 4
UX 172

Cyclops
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 168 (Note: The MCP already supports my theory about a gap between ux 168 and the last page of it, where Scott meets Maddy, as the Graphic Novel occurs in this gap.)
UX 170
UX 171
W 4
UX 172

Colossus, Storm, Nightcrawler (all 3 have the same chronology here)
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 169
UX 170
UX 171
NM 7
W 4
UX 172

Shadowcat
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 169
UX 170
UX 171
W 4
UX 172

Professor X
UX 168
M/GN 5
* X&AF2 1 (moved)
* X&AF2 2 (moved)
UX 169
UX 171
NM 5
NM 6
NM 7
NM 8
UX 173

Basically, all I have done is move the X-Men/Alpha Flight II LS to where it belongs, after the X-Men Graphic Novel. If you look at the X-Men (and Wolverine LS )Issues in question, this makes the most sense. Also there is nothing (that I have found)in AF 4 that chages the order of this LS relative to the X-Men.

(Does any one disagree?)

David

* * *

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
Posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:32:01:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 20:22:29:

> Does any one disagree?

Your summary does make sense, as far as the X-Men go.

Not that I don't disagree so much as caution you that this may be an example where you need to look not only at what makes sense for one book (say, X-Men), but for the entire Marvel Universe.

Again, I can't delve into this at the moment, but the key is that I think (for some reason)that this series must occur after AF 4. And AF 2 and 3 crossover with FF 259-260, and FF 254 crosses over with A 232, and there are Dr. Strange and Defenders chronologies to factor in here -- a big spaghetti of crossover appearances occurs around this time, so placement of one series affects another and, in the end, all characters' chronologies must make sense. Russ and I used clues in the Official Indexes regarding before and after appearances to try to figure all this out. Granted, the indexes themselves or our interpretation of them might be flawed, but if anyone out there can get this portion of the chronology to look fine for all involved, that would be great.

--Paul

* * *

Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
Posted by David Hall on July 14, 2003 at 22:42:54:
In Reply to: Re: X-Men/Alpha Flight II - Proposed Corrections
posted by Paul Bourcier on July 14, 2003 at 21:32:01:

I can't disagree with you (since I don't have those books), except to say that in fitting in X-Men/AF II, we should have to look at X-Men and Alpha Flight comics as our primary sources. The current MCP listing makes no sense, when it comes to X-Men chronology, hence it must be incorrect. In this particular case, books like FF and Avengers crossovers are the secondary sources, that need to be made to fit into the primary ones, not the other way around. Clearly as far as the X-Men are concerned this LS happens between M/GN 5 and W4. For Alpha Flight, it clearly happens between AF 4 and 5. Any FF/AF crossovers really don't change this as far as AF or X-Men characters chronologies go.

(I also propose that if such analysis (of FF, Avengers, etc.) proves that this LS has anything wrong with it than it is probably the refernence to AF 4, rather than the numerous X-Men chronology clues, as there are so many in the LS, as opposed to one AF reference clue.)

By the way I would be quite interested if anyone could explain in detail the issues you mention. Thanks Paul.

Dave

So we see that X&AF2 was originally placed between UX 171 and 172. The problem with this is that Scott and Logan weren't in New York like they were in X&AF2. Paul cautioned that we needed to look at how this affected other stories but apparently nobody checked how this affected Defenders.
The issue with Defenders is this. In Defenders 124, Vision is depicted as walking around. The problem is,he was paralyzed in FF 256, so Defenders 124 HAS to take place before FF 256. The problem is that in Defenders 125, Warren shows up and is traumatized by the events of UX 169-170. The problem is that Defenders 122-125 are a continuing story. So the implication is that UX 169-170 take place prior to FF 256. The problem is that X&AF2 take place after FF 260.
So what happened was this- Paul and Russ placed X&AF2 after UX 171 to avoid shoehorning in a gap in Defenders 122-125. Then David pointed out that this made no sense for Scott and Logan so he moved X&AF2 to before UX 169. But he didn't realize that to make that work he had to create a gap in Defenders 122-125.

[JephYork]

In Defenders 124, Vision is depicted as walking around. The problem is,he was paralyzed in FF 256, so Defenders 124 HAS to take place before FF 256.

Or after he's cured...

-Jeph!

[Michael]

In Defenders 124, Vision is depicted as walking around. The problem is,he was paralyzed in FF 256, so Defenders 124 HAS to take place before FF 256.

Or after he's cured...

-Jeph!

Sorry,I should have been more clear. In A 239, Vision is still paralyzed and the events of DEF 125 are alluded to. Plus, in DEF 124, neither the Vision nor Wanda are active Avengers- that's not the case for any period for almost two years after FF 256.

[Paul Bourcier]

Just to clarify -- Michael, between which pages/panels in DEF 125 do you suggest putting a gap?

[Michael]

Metaldragon and I discussed the subject here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4697
Remember, the elves zapped the Hulk, Namor, Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange out of time in DEF 122. They returned them to the *exact time and place* they were abducted from. So we suggested placing a gap between page 20 and page 38 *only for the Hulk, Namor, Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange*. So basically DEF 122-124 happen before FF 256, and so when the original Defenders are returned to Earth, they're returned to before FF 256. DEF 125 takes place after FF 261 for everybody else. So the old Defenders needed time to talk and think over disbanding, Strange, the Surfer and Namor have their own adventures during this time period, and then they show up at Patsy's and Daimon's wedding on page 38. So the revised chronologies would be as follows:

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
...
DRSTR2 59
DEF 122
DEF 123
DEF 124
DEF 125
A 234
DRSTR2 60~A 234
DRSTR2 60
DEF 125
DRSTR2 61
...

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
...
H2 279
DEF 122
DEF 123
DEF 124
DEF 125
FF 259
TM:BB
FF 260
FF 261
DEF 125
SWII 9
...

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
...
M/TIO 96
DEF 122
DEF 123
DEF 124
DEF 125
FF 260-FB
FF 260
AF 3
AF 4
AF 3 ~ AF 4
AF 4
FF 261
DEF 125
AF 12
...

The Hulk's chronology would remain the same.

[Paul Bourcier]

So, then, except for the scenes in DEF 125 that depict the original Defenders through page 20, a span of time separates DEF 124 and 125. The Elf narrator tells us that "when his old Avengers cohorts -- the Vision and the Scarlet Witch -- turned down his membership request [a reference to DEF 124], poor Hank got a little peeved. And so he and Drake went out to drown their sorrows in booze." We see them returning from their night on the town in DEF 125. This gave readers the impression that DEF 125 follows directly from DEF 124. So the proposed gap would just lengthen the time Beast is brooding about the rejection, or the Elf is just wrong (hey, he's an elf...). Also, Valkyrie would have waited a while to bring Moondragon to the Defenders, and, as you say, the original Defenders took their time to ponder disbanding.

DEF 125 (3-5, 15-20) happens right after DEF 124
DEF 125 (6-14, 21-39) happens a while later, after a bunch of other stuff in the gap

Correct?

[Michael]

Yeah-Val might have waited a while to bring Moondragon to the Defenders, or Odin might have spent a while trying to convince her that a rapist and a parricide is worthy of redemption.
The alternative would be to place X&AF2 during or after UX 171, but like DHall pointed out, it's difficult to make the story work if it takes place *while* Scott is dating Maddie, and Logan and Scott should be absent. (Of course, X&AF2 has caused many problems with continuity. We had to ignore the fact that Puck and Logan's meeting after Mac's death was treated as a first meeting, and the Handbooks had to assume that the Strucker that appeared was *another* Strucker LMD- does Strucker get a discount on LMDs if he purchase them by the bulk?)

[Paul Bourcier]

Okay, Michael, thanks. Does anyone see a problem with the proposed DEF 125 gap?

[Col_Fury]

Okay... maybe I have too many things sprawled across my desk at the moment. I understand the need for the gap, but I'm having trouble seeing what Dr. Strange's, Silver Surfer's and Sub-Mariner's chronologies would look like with the page/panels ranges. Can someone lay that out for me?

Also, would this affect Odin appearing in Defenders #123 after Thor #334? Here's the relevant chronologies:

ODIN [ASGARDIAN]
...
T 328
T 331
DEF 122
T 334
DEF 123
M/GN 33
...

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]
...
A 233 ~ FF 256
A 234
T 334
T 335
T 336
M/GN 33
...

VISION II
...
A@ 12
DEF 123
DEF 124
PM&IF 102-FB
PM&IF 102
A 233
A 233 ~ FF 256
A 234
...

At a glance if you put Thor & Odin together, you get A 234 -> T 334 -> DEF 123

And yet, Vision says DEF 123 -> A 234

Should Defenders #123 be moved to an earlier point in Odin's chronology, say, between DEF 122 & T 334? Does Defenders #123 reference Thor #334? Or does this gap in DEF 125 fix that... somehow?