Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

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loki
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Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by loki »

I did an entry a little while back for Appendix covering the Ghost Rider of Tombstone who was introduced in Rawhide Kid: The Sensational Seven, and one of the things I tried to figure out was when the events could have taken place. In this thread, it is noted that:
"Due to the presence of Billy the Kid, the story has to occur between 1877 and 1881 and more likely in 1880 or 1881 since Pat Garrett is mentioned."

However, there's way more historical dating hints in the story than that! And since the dating will impact on where the story gets placed in the overall chronologies for Rawhide Kid, Two-Gun Kid, Kid Colt, Red Wolf and Lobo, I thought I should share the observations I made for the Appendix entry. Please feel free to shoot down any errors you spot:
"The dating of his appearance in Sensational Seven, and indeed that series' entire storyline, is somewhat confused. At one juncture, Kid Colt tells Rawhide to ask Wild Bill Hickok to help rescue the captured Earp brothers, and Rawhide informs Colt that Hickok is dead; Wild Bill Hickok died in 1876. However, the story is set after the Gunfight at the OK Corral, which took place on October 26th 1881 - I guess Kid Colt really doesn't keep up with the news! Morgan Earp, present in Sensational Seven, died on March 18th 1882, so presumably the Rawhide Kid adventure and Ghost Rider's brief tenure as Tombstone's sheriff has to take place between November 1881 and March 1882. Except that Billy the Kid joins Rawhide's team, and he died in July 1881. I guess the Marvel universe Billy survived, like the legends claim. Then we've got villain Cristo Pike mentioning the James Gang - Jesse died April 1882, so that at least doesn't pose a problem; the Dalton Gang (not active until 1890! But Frank and Grat Dalton were in their early 20s in 1881, so despite not being criminals or famous at that point, at a stretch Cristo might have meant them. Alternatively, he might have been referring to the real-world Dalton's fictional cousins, the Dalton Gang of the French comic Lucky Luke, bringing them into the Marvel universe); and Tonto (since the fictional Lone Ranger and Tonto weren't created until the 1930s, this might be considered evidence that Tonto, and presumably Lone Ranger too, exist as real individuals in the Marvel universe)."
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by vanhornluke »

Rawhide refers to the Lone Ranger in his 2003 series. That mean's it's already been confirmed that there's a 616 Lone Ranger.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

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In Avengers 141-143, Thor, Moondragon, and Hawkeye, with the aid of the Rawhide Kid, the Two-Gun Kid, Kid Colt, the Night Rider, and the Ringo Kid, tackle Kang in Tombstone, Arizona in 1873. Since Tombstone wasn't founded until 1879 in our world, this era of history must be vastly different in E-616 than in our version of Reality. Has anyone ever gone thru the Marvel Westerns and tried to piece it all together? Sounds like a project. No, i didn't just volunteer. :outtahere:
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by loki »

StrayLamb wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:05 am In Avengers 141-143, Thor, Moondragon, and Hawkeye, with the aid of the Rawhide Kid, the Two-Gun Kid, Kid Colt, the Night Rider, and the Ringo Kid, tackle Kang in Tombstone, Arizona in 1873. Since Tombstone wasn't founded until 1879 in our world, this era of history must be vastly different in E-616 than in our version of Reality. Has anyone ever gone thru the Marvel Westerns and tried to piece it all together? Sounds like a project. No, i didn't just volunteer. :outtahere:
You can probably blame Kang's involvement for such temporal anomalies.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by vanhornluke »

I still want someone to explain how Two-Gun (Matt) could be present at the Battle of the Alamo, and how both the Matt and Clay Two-Guns could have so many identical adventures.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

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vanhornluke wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:03 pm I still want someone to explain how Two-Gun (Matt) could be present at the Battle of the Alamo, and how both the Matt and Clay Two-Guns could have so many identical adventures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJerFXbUrNA
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

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vanhornluke wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:03 pm I still want someone to explain how Two-Gun (Matt) could be present at the Battle of the Alamo, and how both the Matt and Clay Two-Guns could have so many identical adventures.
Less flippantly: Matt's a time-traveller, so his presence at the Alamo (what comic claimed or showed that?) could be down to that, depending on when it was stated (e.g. if it happened before he became a time-traveller, then it's problematic, but if it came up after he did some time travelling, then we've got the out).

Or it was Clay at the Alamo, and his adventures took place much earlier than Matt. The identical adventures and contradictory accounts of Clay being active much later could be down to Dime Novels recounting his and Matt's stories and getting mixed up between the two, so that some of Matt's tales are credited to Clay and vice versa.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by wolframbane »

In TGK #134, '76, which reprints the Alamo story, a new caption on page 1 indicates that this has been retconned to being an imaginary story.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

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loki wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:15 pm
vanhornluke wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:03 pm I still want someone to explain how Two-Gun (Matt) could be present at the Battle of the Alamo, and how both the Matt and Clay Two-Guns could have so many identical adventures.
Less flippantly: Matt's a time-traveller, so his presence at the Alamo (what comic claimed or showed that?) could be down to that, depending on when it was stated (e.g. if it happened before he became a time-traveller, then it's problematic, but if it came up after he did some time travelling, then we've got the out).

Or it was Clay at the Alamo, and his adventures took place much earlier than Matt. The identical adventures and contradictory accounts of Clay being active much later could be down to Dime Novels recounting his and Matt's stories and getting mixed up between the two, so that some of Matt's tales are credited to Clay and vice versa.
I've thought that might be the way to go, although it would be nice to know which story should really be attributed to which Two-Gun. I think the only official clarification we've been given is in The Outlaw Files, which argues (in-universe, so take that for what it's worth) that the story with the "dinosaur" was really Clay and not Matt.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by vanhornluke »

wolframbane wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:02 pm In TGK #134, '76, which reprints the Alamo story, a new caption on page 1 indicates that this has been retconned to being an imaginary story.
Interesting. I didn't realize that. Thanks! :)
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by StrayLamb »

I looked thru a few stray issues from my Rawhide Kid comics, and they all seem to fall into the 1872-1876 period, and Tombstone appears to be up and running in those as well.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by wolframbane »

For the research I have done for the Marvel Timeline, I have attempted to determine dates as precise as possible for historical periods. For the Old West, the historical dates of about 1870-1877 are covered by issues published from 1960-1975. This has canonically been confirmed in the Rawhide Listing for All-New OHOTMU A-Z #9 and even more specifically the Bibliography for the character.
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibli ... awhide_Kid

The primary date breakdowns are below:

Historical Date - Publication Dates
1868 - Rawhide Kid #17 (Aug 1960)
1869 - Rawhide Kid #17 (Aug 1960)
1870 - Rawhide Kid #18 (Oct 1960) to Rawhide Kid #25 (Dec 1961)
1871 - Rawhide Kid #26 (Feb 1962) to Rawhide Kid #38 (Feb 1964)
1872 - Rawhide Kid #39 (Apr 1964) to Rawhide Kid #50 (Feb 1966)
1873 - Rawhide Kid #51 (Apr 1966) to Rawhide Kid #62 (Feb 1968)
1874 - Rawhide Kid #63 (Apr 1968) to Rawhide Kid #73 (Dec 1969)
1875 - Rawhide Kid #75 (Apr 1970) to Rawhide Kid #85 (Mar 1971)
1876 - Rawhide Kid #87 (May 1971) to Rawhide Kid #97 (Feb 1972)
1877 - Rawhide Kid #98 (Mar 1972) to Rawhide Kid #115 (Sep 1973), Western Team-Up #1 (Nov 1973), Giant-Size Kid Colt #1 (Jan 1975), Kid Colt Outlaw #201 (Dec 1975)

A more specific breakdown is here:

Historical Date - Publication Dates
1870 - Oct 1960-Dec 1961
1871 - Feb 1962-Feb 1964
1872 - Apr 1964-Feb 1966
1873 - Apr 1966-Feb 1968
1874 - Apr 1968-Dec 1969
1875 - Apr 1970-Mar 1971
1876 - May 1971-Feb 1972
1877 - Mar 1972-Dec 1975

Kid Colt and Two-Gun Kid crossed over frequently with Rawhide Kid in his series and their own series. So based upon these events, it is quite simple to figure out most of the Old West dates. There are a few stories out of place, particularly when they encounter historical characters like Doc Holliday or Wild Bill Hickok, or when involved in historical events, or if specific dates are given in the story like as a result of time travel. Unfortunately this does not help so much for Kid Colt for his stories published from 1949-1959.

Per his OHOTMU listing, Rawhide began his career as a gunfighter in 1868. In the Marvel Westerns handbook, a wanted poster gives Two-Gun's career as starting in 1870 (non-canon Alamo story aside). Colt was active at least as early as 1865 as he encountered Abraham Lincoln the day before he was killed i an old issue of Gunsmoke Western.

Also, references to Tombstone for Two Gun Kid refer to Tombstone, Texas, not Tombstone Arizona, per TGK #60. Similarly, Kid Colt was born in the fictional Abilene, Wyoming per OHOTMU, as opposed to Abilene, Texas.
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Re: Rawhide Kid - the Sensational Seven

Post by StrayLamb »

Tombstone, Texas, huh.? Well knock me down and steal muh tooth!

Rawhide met Wild Bill Hickok shortly before his death in Deadwood in Rawhide Kid #61, so 1876 for that issue.

Thanks for clearing that up, and the Rawhide Kid breakdowns. :D
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